Force Annexed by Friends?

[unmerged(20077)]

I was watching events unfold in Germany with the "Pappenheim" cheat in a slack period for my country. Austria had accumulated a lot of BB and half the North German states decided to attack them, while a couple of rebellions broke out. Hannover decided to join in and invaded Habsburg owned but rebel held Pfalz. In the middle of the siege, the Palatinate declared independence and went to war with Austria as well - but the siege stayed... so if it's taken to its conclusion Pfalz will have its territory controlled by a power it's not at war with, Hannover... but since Hannover isn't at war with them, it won't be able to offer peace and force annex... but... anyway, I just deleted the siege from the save game.

 

[unmerged(5205)]

I was watching events unfold in Germany with the "Pappenheim" cheat in a slack period for my country. Austria had accumulated a lot of BB and half the North German states decided to attack them, while a couple of rebellions broke out. Hannover decided to join in and invaded Habsburg owned but rebel held Pfalz. In the middle of the siege, the Palatinate declared independence and went to war with Austria as well - but the siege stayed... so if it's taken to its conclusion Pfalz will have its territory controlled by a power it's not at war with, Hannover... but since Hannover isn't at war with them, it won't be able to offer peace and force annex... but... anyway, I just deleted the siege from the save game.

What's the question?

 

[unmerged(19936)]

Maybe he's just pointing out one of the odd things that can happen in a game.

 

[dharper]

If you're asking what I think you're asking, here's my answer:

Countries that are not at war with you can lay siege to your provinces if they are occupied by a nation the first country is at war with (always including rebels).

However, this assumes that the first nation is in your territory to begin with (or has access to your land via treaty or by being Holy Roman Emperor).

These sieges won't claim the province for the first (invading) country - they will be 'given back' to the owner. I've seen it happen a few times, but it's not that common.

Does that help?

 

[unmerged(22702)]

Usually tends to happen with rebellions.................

Can be a pain as you spend ages siege a province move on then it revolts and they siege and the only effect is to revert back to orginal owner..............

 

[unmerged(20077)]

Countries that are not at war with you can lay siege to your provinces if they are occupied by a nation the first country is at war with (always including rebels).

However, this assumes that the first nation is in your territory to begin with (or has access to your land via treaty or by being Holy Roman Emperor).

These sieges won't claim the province for the first (invading) country - they will be 'given back' to the owner. I've seen it happen a few times, but it's not that common.

Does that help?

No, this was a bit different. Hannover had been besieging Austrian Pfalz, which was rebel controlled. When the Palatinate revolted away, control and ownership changed from Austrian/Rebel to Palatinate/Palatinate, but the siege carried on. Now a bit later on, the same thing happened in another former Austrian province, as Bavaria, Poland and the Ottomans decided to join in the carve up: Mainz declared independence while a third party was besieging its only province - as far as I can tell this time (I wasn't paying as close attention) the end result was that the government of Mainz fell because it didn't control any provinces.

 

[unmerged(25696)]

Mainz declared independence while a third party was besieging its only province - as far as I can tell this time (I wasn't paying as close attention) the end result was that the government of Mainz fell because it didn't control any provinces.

That's weird, because a government only falls if rebels control more provinces than themselves... not when they don't control any. :wacko:

 

[dharper]

No, this was a bit different. Hannover had been besieging Austrian Pfalz, which was rebel controlled. When the Palatinate revolted away, control and ownership changed from Austrian/Rebel to Palatinate/Palatinate, but the siege carried on. Now a bit later on, the same thing happened in another former Austrian province, as Bavaria, Poland and the Ottomans decided to join in the carve up: Mainz declared independence while a third party was besieging its only province - as far as I can tell this time (I wasn't paying as close attention) the end result was that the government of Mainz fell because it didn't control any provinces.

That is strange. Was Hannover at war with Austria or allied with them? Austria could very well have asked her allies for help against her newly-independent rebels, in which case Hannover could have been at war with the Palatinate as well.

For Mainz I have a theory - perhaps (I have no evidence for this) when a rebel-owned province declares independence, it stays rebel-owned for, say, a day (or less) before changing to the new owner. Being besieged prevented that somehow and the province counted as rebel-owned, bringing the government down.

Otherwise, I have no idea. It's a strange, strange situation.

 

[unmerged(5205)]

If you're asking what I think you're asking, here's my answer:

Countries that are not at war with you can lay siege to your provinces if they are occupied by a nation the first country is at war with (always including rebels).

However, this assumes that the first nation is in your territory to begin with (or has access to your land via treaty or by being Holy Roman Emperor).

These sieges won't claim the province for the first (invading) country - they will be 'given back' to the owner. I've seen it happen a few times, but it's not that common.

Does that help?

You don't see this happen that much? I see it happen alot in my games. It does suck when it happens but you can always just retake the province

 

[Underhand]

No, this was a bit different. Hannover had been besieging Austrian Pfalz, which was rebel controlled. When the Palatinate revolted away, control and ownership changed from Austrian/Rebel to Palatinate/Palatinate, but the siege carried on. Now a bit later on, the same thing happened in another former Austrian province, as Bavaria, Poland and the Ottomans decided to join in the carve up: Mainz declared independence while a third party was besieging its only province - as far as I can tell this time (I wasn't paying as close attention) the end result was that the government of Mainz fell because it didn't control any provinces.

Given that the province ended up still owned by Mainz, what I think probably happened is that the siege ended without issue. That is, the government didn't fall, the third party didn't gain control, the province just stayed controlled by Mainz. I think this because I have had two rebellions at the same time in the same province, one of which immediately controlled the city (I hate those...). The other rebels carried on sieging the province, even though they counted as controlling it. When the siege ended it was still rebel-controlled.

I have also seen Gascogne declare independence on the first of December, their government fall on the first of December, and another country (Foix?) declare independence on the first of December. All on the same day, all in the same province :wacko:

EDIT: Now I remember; the countries were Guyenne and Armagnac, the province was Gascogne.

 

[unmerged(20077)]

The government definitely fell - that's the part I'm sure about, but why is a mystery... unless for some reason rebels appeared.

 

[dharper]

I have also seen Gascogne declare independence on the first of December, their government fall on the first of December, and another country (Foix?) declare independence on the first of December. All on the same day, all in the same province :wacko:

Busy day!

 

[unmerged(20077)]

I have also seen Gascogne declare independence on the first of December, their government fall on the first of December, and another country (Foix?) declare independence on the first of December. All on the same day, all in the same province :wacko:

EDIT: Now I remember; the countries were Guyenne and Armagnac, the province was Gascogne.

That I can see happening: sometimes when you get revolt risk, you can get two revolts in the same province in a short space of time. Now, if the first one is an "open the gates" revolt where the rebels take the city immediately, when the second one happens, you get the odd situation of rebels besieging rebels. If Guyenne declared independence just as the 2nd rebel faction captured the city, their government would fall and they would turn into Armagnac, just as when the government of Aragon falls, Catalunya takes over Barca.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Yes, it does happen that countries that are not at war can take control of a province, as in the case mentioned at the start of this thread. It takes one, two, or three months before the game engine corrects the problem by returning control of the province to the rightful owner. The problem is fairly quickly resolved. The engine would also correct that troops not at war could not siege,;but the game engine doesn't perform a check all that often.

There is one more serious problem. That is when a country that is not at war takes control of a province and then the government of the owning country falls. That causes the controlling country to get the province even though they were not at war, (a mini-turbo-annexation). That's how I got Fars onetime when my troops were passing with millitary access through Timurid Empire. My troops crossed Fars, an unfortifed rebel controlled province, and the next month I owned Fars and had three more BB points.

 

[unmerged(20077)]

Hmm... there was no turbo annexation in this case. It only took a month after independence for the government to fall - I can only assume one of two things happened: either rebels appeared and defeated the besiegers, thus stealing the nearly completed siege and immediately capturing the city, or there was one of those "Open the gates" revolts where the rebels get the city without doing anything - which is a bit tough on a one province minor.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Hmm... there was no turbo annexation in this case. It only took a month after independence for the government to fall - I can only assume one of two things happened: either rebels appeared and defeated the besiegers, thus stealing the nearly completed siege and immediately capturing the city, or there was one of those "Open the gates" revolts where the rebels get the city without doing anything - which is a bit tough on a one province minor.

I know there was no turbo annexation; a one province minor (Palatinate) cannot be subjected to turbo annexation. Perhaps you are referring to Austria's government falling? I don't think so because you said Palatinate went to war against Austria in declaring independence; that doesn't happen when a government falls. Oh, I see you're talking about Mainz's government falling. I don't know about that one.

Anyway, I was only talking about the possibility of one country controlling a province from a country not at war and then a governmental collapse giving the province away in a turbo annex. It's the only long-lasting, adverse possibility from this "control when not at war" problem. As I said, the game engine will correct the control problem within a few months. And the problem is automatically corrected on reload. But if a turbo-annexation happens, it is permanent or requires editing to fix.

A small problem is that a country cannot build troops while inappropriately seiged or controlled. It only lasts a couple of months and isn't likely to happen to a player. The AI takes its time in building troops anyway. So I don't see a big problem except for the turbo-annexation bit. It's just an oddity of the game.