For this Hoi, can troops defect and fight along side with another country?

[Alex_brunius]

With national unity and leadership added we have alot more tools to play with to help us determine when an entire division could defect.

I belive both dissent (unhappy population), national unity (population that wants to give up) and leadership (badly and few trained leaders) Should be important factors.

Alot of other games also include spies that can bribe generals or armies into defection.

Adding nationality of troops and manpower (as it work in Victoria) is the only way I can see this feature work, but on the other hand china, spain and ahistorical civil wars are the only places where this would be really useful. But it would be damned cool with a totally dynamic civil war system where divisions can switch sides depending on how its going and other things mentioned before.

If there are enough event triggers it might be simpler to make events that let chinese factions enherit each others units when they are encircled and out of supplies.

 

[reignerok]

Maybe doing some kind of "tag" which identifies when two or more countries are "the same". Like the HoI2 regular_id, but better.

 

[Porkman]

If they consider to add any of this for the "game" it should either be for all sides or none otherwise theres no intrest.

Now for captured material thats surely an option cause this happened in many ways often vastly.

For troops and divisions however... its totally diffrent troughout all the wars and fronts, so allot more complex to even consider it in the game.

This would apply to all sides ....if they had a Civil War. So if the Soviet Union fell into chaos than there would be the possibility for former Red Army soldiers to switch sides between the warring factions.

It shouldn't apply to things like "the Russian Liberation Army," the Ukrainians who fought with the Germans or Chandra Bose's forces in Burma because those were prisoners who were reconstituted into whole new units and then sent to the front. Volunteers from occupied territory are actually much better represented by the trickle of manpower that you get from those places.

Things like French Polish divisions and Yugoslav RAF pilots are already going to be dealt with via the Government in exile mechanic.

It was only in situations with Civil wars that division and army size formations switch sides entirely.

Punderland's statistics about the Civil War are largely correct.

For example, the 60th army defected in it's entirety to the communist side after being surrounded in Changchun on october 17, 1948.

Even larger was the battle of Beijing- Tientsin, where Fu Tso-i was surrounded on January 14 of 1949 and was forced to withdraw his 200,000 troops from the city and integrate them into the PLA.

That's not small potatoes. And worthy of it's own mechanic.

 

[dermeister]

I second the motion to include a moddable constant for defection in civil wars.

This would be good for the Chinese Civil War and the FFF-Vichy battles.

 

[warchlak]

I think it should be solved by using special events for China. If CPC obtain cetain conditions, then some units of rep china will join the commies.

 

[Galleblære]

Let me give an example in statistic data
1936: CPC: 30 thousands men, Nat. China: 4 millions
1945: CPC: 0.25 millions men, Nat. China: 3.5 millions
1948: CPC: 5 millions men, Nat. China: 0.5 millions

Most of the CPC's men were come from defecting Nat. China since wages and supplies of Nat. China was declining drastically and the ideal of Communism fit the starving peasants and soilders. This is real when u look it up in books.(Maybe the data are not that precise but much less like it)

This is indirectly already supported in HoI2. Since the nationalist and commies have virtually the same cores, they get manpower from the provinces they conquer. Not a perfect solution, but its there.

 

[Porkman]

This is indirectly already supported in HoI2. Since the nationalist and commies have virtually the same cores, they get manpower from the provinces they conquer. Not a perfect solution, but its there.

Core manpower does not represents defecting troops, it represents access to new recruits. That's all well and good but it ignores the fact that the greatest source of PLA recruits during the Civil War was defecting Nationalist divisions.

Nationalist Strength Communist Strength

4,300,000 (July 1945) 1,200,000 (July 1945)
3,650,000 (June 1948) 2,800,000 (June 1948)
1,490,000 (June 1949) 4,000,000 (June 1949)

The total number of troops in China

5,500,000 (July 1945)
6,450,000 (June 1948)
5,490,000 （June 1949)

You have two explanations for this. Explanation A: The communists surrounded and killed/captured/disarmed 2,160,000 Nationalist troops between June of 1948 and June of 1949, while simultaneously raising 1,200,000 completely fresh recruits.

OR

Explanation B: (the real explanation, btw) The communists defeated 2,160,000 Nationalist troops, a great proportion of which switched over to the communist side.

We have two ways to reproduce these numbers, make it so that surrounded low org, low loyalty divisions can defect.

OR

Give the belligerents enough IC to be able to build the defected units from scratch. If we take the size of a division to be 10,000 soldiers, we would need to give Communist China enough IC to create 120 divisions over the course of a single year.

I know HOI3 won't use quite the same modifiers but it should be somewhat close to the current system.

With full hawk, central planning, and human wave each infantry division will take 95 days and 4.2 IC. That's 31 serials of 4 infantry. This would mean that Communist China would have to have 131.25 IC devoted to production. And this would all have to be located in Manchuria and North China because they haven't taken even half of the country, so the full IC of China would have to be something like 300+.

Absolutely ridiculous.

A more accurate simulation would be to have roughly 5 and a half million Chinese troops with low loyalty who will switch sides depending on how the war is going.

 

[Punderland]

I think this issue is best left to events adding manpower to represent volunteers. A whole division defecting is not very realistic, and it would not be easily incorporated into another country's army organisation.

Well, you get a gun, bullets, equiments. And what more do u need when you defect? It do make sense......hmm....... How about the defected would have halved strength and need time to recover. Back in the American civil war, General Lee did the same. There were a total 90 thousand soldiers.

 

[Enewald]

Maybe the game should have a modifier 'civil war'.
When divisions fighting against the opponent lose enough org and maybe morale of them somehow drops, they shall surrender/disappear, giving a loss of supplies to the nation for whom they were fighting, and giving a manpower and a small amount of supplies for the other side of the civil war.

And a huge modifier in the chinese civil war were the generals of KMT, the general in charge of Manchuria gave up a hell lot of ground to PLA without proper fighting, decided to hide in cities and become surrounded and destroyed...
And the same in Hebei later, a depressed general in command of KMT forces, who was planning all the time to surrender his million strong army to commies, except the commies decided to fight to get a propaganda victory.
A waste of soldiers.


It would be just easier to create events, whenever the other side conquers a province, it gets a new militia, which it can accept or decline.

 

[Voss]

Don't you remember about Czech soldiers defecting from the k.u.k Armee during WWI?

Also, I think that capturing planes should be possible.

 

[unmerged(68179)]

when you mentioned race the mod practically chat his pants, i mean come on its not that far away from nationality or culture.

 

[vertinox]

In the respect your talking about, it didn't really happen in the numbers HOI works in ... Maybe a boost to manpower, but not divisions switiching sides ...

There were instances of this happening on both sides of the Eastern front between Germany and Russia.

However, Germany put its Russian troops on the west front and Russia ended up never fielding its German volunteers for fear they might just walk away.

It was more for propaganda purposes than anything else.

 

[Porkman]

There were instances of this happening on both sides of the Eastern front between Germany and Russia.

However, Germany put its Russian troops on the west front and Russia ended up never fielding its German volunteers for fear they might just walk away.

It was more for propaganda purposes than anything else.

But it didn't matter in those cases. Outside of the Spanish and Chinese Civil Wars, defecting divisions were merely a curiosity, and of no military importance.

I am advocating a defecting unit mechanic that is limited to Civil war situations, not wars between sovereign nations.

 

[joriandrake]

But it didn't matter in those cases. Outside of the Spanish and Chinese Civil Wars, defecting divisions were merely a curiosity, and of no military importance.

I am advocating a defecting unit mechanic that is limited to Civil war situations, not wars between sovereign nations.

except when soviets marched towards Berlin and troops from Hungary/Rumania/ect all joined them, right? When the nation itself didn't join the soviets there were some infights among the troops of the same nation

I would call that military importance, just like the possibility that french troops or ships fight among themself, or italian ones at later date, and ofc there could be various other situations like this, and most likely most of them would be ahistorical, so while I am for having defection options or maybe even bribing spy mission, i am against that only historical nations should have some pre-programmed event chain for these to happen.

As HoI3 comes out after EU3 and Rome, I hope it will be handled more like rebels and the civil war from Rome

 

[Porkman]

except when soviets marched towards Berlin and troops from Hungary/Rumania/ect all joined them, right? When the nation itself didn't join the soviets there were some infights among the troops of the same nation

I would call that military importance, just like the possibility that french troops or ships fight among themself, or italian ones at later date, and ofc there could be various other situations like this, and most likely most of them would be ahistorical, so while I am for having defection options or maybe even bribing spy mission, i am against that only historical nations should have some pre-programmed event chain for these to happen.

As HoI3 comes out after EU3 and Rome, I hope it will be handled more like rebels and the civil war from Rome

We actually agree here. The Balkan States switching to the Soviet Side should be handled diplomatically, not tactically, but the armies should have some internal strife as the divisions pick sides. Even in this case it was a little different, they weren't asking the Bulgarians to fight Bulgarians, they were asking them to fight Germans.

I don't want it limited to historical nations, ANY nation that falls into Civil War should be able to cause defeated units to defect (modified by org, national unity, dissent, strength etc.).

What shouldn't happen is the Wehrmacht being able to surround a Red Army division and have its guns turned around within two months. This situation only happened in Civil Wars. A great many PLA divisions even kept their Nationalist unit designation.

 

[unmerged(132822)]

As for welcoming the enemy into your army... don't try that in spain.
The "ay señor" sombrero masters were completely ruthless to captured enemies. Up against the wall and that was it. Even after the war ended...

 

[joriandrake]

As for welcoming the enemy into your army... don't try that in spain.
The "ay señor" sombrero masters were completely ruthless to captured enemies. Up against the wall and that was it. Even after the war ended...

I think defecting troops are a bit different from captured enemy troops

 

[Porkman]

As for welcoming the enemy into your army... don't try that in spain.
The "ay señor" sombrero masters were completely ruthless to captured enemies. Up against the wall and that was it. Even after the war ended...

That's part of the motivation to defect, before you get captured.

 

[Punderland]

We actually agree here. The Balkan States switching to the Soviet Side should be handled diplomatically, not tactically, but the armies should have some internal strife as the divisions pick sides. Even in this case it was a little different, they weren't asking the Bulgarians to fight Bulgarians, they were asking them to fight Germans.

I don't want it limited to historical nations, ANY nation that falls into Civil War should be able to cause defeated units to defect (modified by org, national unity, dissent, strength etc.).

What shouldn't happen is the Wehrmacht being able to surround a Red Army division and have its guns turned around within two months. This situation only happened in Civil Wars. A great many PLA divisions even kept their Nationalist unit designation.

Yap, that's wt I am saying

 

[Punderland]

Perhapse we should add one more feature to army, Loyalty!