Wouldn't such rushed training be reflected in tactics and morale of the troops? Meaning a lower GDE?
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The Chinese Nationalist Army was a mess. Yes, they generally lacked equipment, notably arty and communications, but with the warlords and their habit of having very small divisions, and "armies" that were the size of normal divisions, the 8 German-trained divisions, the 12 that were only organized along German lines. But in total, and including the warlord armies, they had 133 "corps" each the size of a division, organized into 30 "armies" (these would be the cores in-game, I guess).
By my count, that'd be 8 infantry '31 divisions, 12 '26 infantry, (apparently) 4 cavalry, model 1924 or so, and 109 '26 militias, after China eats the warlords. China could start with 1918 Infantry and Cavalry tech, and upgrade them to 1926 before the start of the war, with the 8 '31 divisions already in place.
After a lot of these were utterly shwacked by the Japanese in 1938, the Chinese reformed and started to use "Army groups", more like normal Armies. By the end of the war, 32 of these active (out of 40 that existed throughout the war), containing 300 divisions and 5.7 million men (so, for-real divisions this time I guess).
By my count, that'd be 8 infantry '31 divisions, 12 '26 infantry, (apparently) 4 cavalry, model 1924 or so, and 109 '26 militias, after China eats the warlords. China could start with 1918 Infantry and Cavalry tech, and upgrade them to 1926 before the start of the war, with the 8 '31 divisions already in place.
After a lot of these were utterly shwacked by the Japanese in 1938, the Chinese reformed and started to use "Army groups", more like normal Armies. By the end of the war, 32 of these active (out of 40 that existed throughout the war), containing 300 divisions and 5.7 million men (so, for-real divisions this time I guess).
Im playing DH 1-02B with Japan on Normal/Normal and its end 1940 and i have annexed China cause they didn want to surrender with the events 
See, this sounds to me like they should start with tons of divisions, but they should have tiny strength and need to be reinforced up to full manually rather than by mobilisation event. Of course, it wouldn't matter if militia weren't such good units in the first place.
Im playing DH 1-02B with Japan on Normal/Normal and its end 1940 and i have annexed China cause they didn want to surrender with the events
That was my experience as well. China was really tough, but with a really big planned pincer attack I destroyed half their army over a few months in 1939, the rest was just mopping up. I was surprised I was successful at all because I'm not really that good at this game. I personally find France to be harder when playing GER haha. I've tried over and over again but I get bogged down past 1940 and just rage quit every time. I guess with the Chinese I was ready to simply let things play out historically and just leave it that way, but eventually I found some weak spots and couldn't resist the temptation to obliterate them. Maybe people still expect to beat the Chinese in 1938? Boring imo...
I'm able to defeat China by 1940 but that leaves me with an inadequate navy and means certain doom against USA.
In my first and so far last DH Japan game I finished off China in 1940 and was ready to attack America by early 1942, once Germany pushes the Soviets to the urals.. But they didn't. Germany stayed idle, USSR DoWed it summer 1942 and withing six months the European axis were no more. Thank goodness I didn't attack the Allies, but now I was the only axis empire left with absolutely zero chance of moving forward.
In my first and so far last DH Japan game I finished off China in 1940 and was ready to attack America by early 1942, once Germany pushes the Soviets to the urals.. But they didn't. Germany stayed idle, USSR DoWed it summer 1942 and withing six months the European axis were no more. Thank goodness I didn't attack the Allies, but now I was the only axis empire left with absolutely zero chance of moving forward.
That's an unnecessary hassle. The way I understand the sources, they had the strength equivalent of 133 divisions to deploy, all but 20 very primitive and some may have been undermanned and underequipped even by their own very low standard. That's why I had all but the 20 german model divisions pegged as militia and early interbellic cavalry. Thinking more on it, indeed Militias are strong units, and the Chinese should maybe have the previous model of them (1918?) and start with 1921 infantry tech only.
Hell, Romania starts with only 1921 infantry. We had better gear back then than the Chinese :/
Try this modifiers file. I lowered militia attack capacity in difficult terrain to show their much shorter training.
I would like to clarify for those of you that declare that you have beaten China that my main concern was the Japanese AI vs the Chinese AI.
This is more or less the historical number of divisions. I'd say Japan is underpowered and the quality of the Chinese army is too good
And so the never-ending debate on every HoI game over which side needs to be nerfed in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War continues.
I found that in the end, HOI2 had a pretty good balance. Both sides could win...Now Japan can't even leave Manchuria. It's 1943 in my game and they've captured two provinces so far, and are in the middle of a war with the Allies. China managed to annex Indochina too. Just...ridiculous.
No, the balancing of this theatre has always been terrible. It's very hard to get it right in HOI games.
One major thing which hampered the Japanese advance IRL was logistics. DH's logistical model is very simplistic, so I doubt that it will be possible to represent that aspect properly without overpowering the Japanese. On the Chinese side, superstacks allow them to reign supreme - another failure of the logistical model.
It would be really wise to evaluate the current model and improve it without making it extremely complex. I would start with some tweaks which could make superstacks less effective.
Introduce stacking penalty that is in naval and air combat, though at first small when it passes 6 units, it starts to climb in its penalty value.
OR introduce stacking penalty counters in land doctrines, I mean Manpower Focus means that they rely on large numbers, so they should get a larger than normal stacking penalty right?
Just saw this in my GER game yesterday. Wow... just wow :laugh: superstack galore. Maybe reduce their ORG even further, or their defense capabilities like when you play as the SOV.
The problem is that in the old HoI2 system, China normally got steamrolled by 1940. If they're still around by Pearl Harbor, it's generally now just a few stacks of infantry holed up in the mountains in the deep interior of China.
This is how far Japan made it historically by late 1941.
Not that impressive is it? They made good gains early in the war along the coastal regions, and were able to make some serious pushes into the interior, but a Nationalist China in most HoI2 games would be holding onto maybe 8 provinces around Chungking by December 1941.
Now, that isn't to say that Japan managing to win in China should be impossible. But it does mean that the default for an AI vs AI should be Japan getting halted early on in the war, and being unable to make a decisive victory in most games. Japan actually winning, or China pushing the Japanese out should be the abnormal, rather the standard. So yeah, some more balancing is needed, but going back to the older balance in HoI2 is just as bad.
How about China getting into the allies if they are still around in Pearl Harbor by event? Historically, they were very much considered one of the big 4 of the Allies, heck just look at the Cairo Conference. And unlike the Soviets, where were more co-belligerents then allied wit the Western Allies, China, the US, and the British Empire closely cooperated in the war. They had a unified command in the China-Burma-India theater, and there was significant aid between the nations. Chinese forces launched an offensive south to try and aid Indian forces fighting the Japanese in Indochina. When these troops retreated, they fell back into India, where they were trained and equipped by the US and British, and formed into the modernly armed X Force. Chinese pilots were trained in the US and equipped with modern American built planes. American advisers had a significant role in the Chinese military, and American combat aircraft, ranging from bombers to fighters were stationed in China during much of the war. I think there is more then a good enough cause historically for China to be in the Allies, and by giving China various boosts through events caused by her Allies, aid in blueprints, aviation support from foreign air forces, and a united theater in Indo-china, the base starting strength of China could reduced.
Why is it that China can't be convinced to join the Allies without Acceptall, anyway?
This is how far Japan made it historically by late 1941.
Not that impressive is it? They made good gains early in the war along the coastal regions, and were able to make some serious pushes into the interior, but a Nationalist China in most HoI2 games would be holding onto maybe 8 provinces around Chungking by December 1941.
Now, that isn't to say that Japan managing to win in China should be impossible. But it does mean that the default for an AI vs AI should be Japan getting halted early on in the war, and being unable to make a decisive victory in most games. Japan actually winning, or China pushing the Japanese out should be the abnormal, rather the standard. So yeah, some more balancing is needed, but going back to the older balance in HoI2 is just as bad.
How about China getting into the allies if they are still around in Pearl Harbor by event? Historically, they were very much considered one of the big 4 of the Allies, heck just look at the Cairo Conference. And unlike the Soviets, where were more co-belligerents then allied wit the Western Allies, China, the US, and the British Empire closely cooperated in the war. They had a unified command in the China-Burma-India theater, and there was significant aid between the nations. Chinese forces launched an offensive south to try and aid Indian forces fighting the Japanese in Indochina. When these troops retreated, they fell back into India, where they were trained and equipped by the US and British, and formed into the modernly armed X Force. Chinese pilots were trained in the US and equipped with modern American built planes. American advisers had a significant role in the Chinese military, and American combat aircraft, ranging from bombers to fighters were stationed in China during much of the war. I think there is more then a good enough cause historically for China to be in the Allies, and by giving China various boosts through events caused by her Allies, aid in blueprints, aviation support from foreign air forces, and a united theater in Indo-china, the base starting strength of China could reduced.
Why is it that China can't be convinced to join the Allies without Acceptall, anyway?