For the love of god, lower the coring costs.

[Gringovoir]

To expound on my reply from yesterday, coring costs have gone up somewhere around 40% compared to 1.11 (more for dipannexation) because we wanted to create some more interesting dynamics where conquering everything around you was not necessarily always the best option.

Wiz, that is correct under the assumption that none of provinces were claimed. If the were claims, as I show in this thread coring cost is increased by about 80-90%. I can look up exact numbers but I am pretty sure it is at least 70%. Could you please comment on this and/or on the suggestions?

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ation-on-coring-costs-muscovy-example.861030/

 

[Metagel]

Clearly a lot of players are (still) fixated on going wide in EU4 as game play/design was guilty of encouraging it.

I am just suggesting that players probably have to undergo a process of shifting to expansion at a measured pace vs blobbing quickly.

This is simply not fun. A skilled player already measured their pace by feeding 1 - 4 vassals and constantly running 100% overextension. With the new changes, it may very well be literally impossible to world conquest, let alone one tag, due to the cost changes. This is discouraging and not fun, and I play for fun.

 

[nOxr]

This would work, however, it would also be a DLC-only thing - since vassal interaction is a feature of Common Sense. I personally wouldn't mind that, it might not go over too well with some people here, I'm afraid.
Perhaps, something along the lines of:
vassal/PU has (exact numbers of course subject to balancing):
- more than, say, 5 provinces (or more than x development)
- less than 25 liberty desire
- more than 125 opinion of its overlord

As an additional idea, and a way to compensate for the loss of the unique buildings that grant leader upkeep, what about marches above a certain (not trivial to achieve) level of army and/or navy tradition granting an additional leader? (the historical "justification" being that the overlord can draw from a subject's officer pool). That way, all types of subjects (except protectorates) might provide their overlord a special boon and become more diverse in their utility.

Sounds good! Simple and in line with the current design.

To enhance the immersion, the names of the extra merchants and diplomats should be drawn from the subject's name files, and similar when you have a march that allow you to recruit extra leaders.

 

[CzokletMuss]

Yeah, we need this somewhere else. Not sure where yet.

Diplomatic tech lvl 10 perhaps? Gives you a reason to not fall behind on dip tech by burning all the mana on annexation.

 

[Twoflower]

This is simply not fun. A skilled player already measured their pace by feeding 1 - 4 vassals and constantly running 100% overextension. With the new changes, it may very well be literally impossible to world conquest, let alone one tag, due to the cost changes. This is discouraging and not fun, and I play for fun.

"Fun" is a very vague and personal concept. This is a matter of taste, but IMHO world conquest becoming impossible except for with a few select tags (I would suppose that e.g. the Ottomans and Russia with their coring cost reduction are still perfectly able to do it, and might even have an easier time with Western Focus) is great. World conquest being possible with almost any nation was as silly as an alien invasion event. It was also not a lot of fun to actually complete a world conquest, just a lot of grinding and repetitive conquest (although YMMV).
While it is a fair point to make that peacetime mechanics still leave something to be desired for most countries, I was actually having a blast playing a relatively quiet game as England focussed on internal management, trade and colonization (and of course, trying out the new Parliament and Protestantism stuff) yesterday. The stuff added in 1.12 is certainly a start. Just because it is not perfect yet does not mean it is not the right road to take.
In order for internal management and peacetime mechanics to make any sense, it is imperative for conquest and blobbing not to remain the best option for all countries, as it actually was before 1.12. If Paradox wants to turn EUIV into something else than a map-painting game, more interesting peacetime mechanics and balancing these peacetime options against territorial expansion need to go hand in hand.
There are still plenty of countries and options to do map-painting. It may be more challenging now, but since when does more of a challenge mean less fun?

 

[Alliegorical]

No.

I might consider a scaling discount for tags with less than around 200 development to cut a break for people who enjoy OPMs or are trying to form Italy, but overall the change is good.

 

[juckil]

I understand where you're coming from Wiz, but 40% does seem a little excessive, over the course of a game that's thousands and thousands more ADM points spent. What made you change the claims bonus to -10%? Why couldn't it stay at 25%?

 

[Yugoslavs]

Coring and diplo annex cost increases are just fantastic.

Only thing that was not implemented from my proposal few months ago are coalitions from Iberia to Japan when you conquer one province.

I hope that i will see that changes very soon too, because you can still conquer 200 provinces before game ends in 1821.

 

[Gaussia]

Yeah, we need this somewhere else. Not sure where yet.

Maybe unlock the Diplomat and Diplomatic reputation at some technology level, like 7 and 9?

 

[Darkath]

Yeah, we need this somewhere else. Not sure where yet.

Could you add back all unique buildings bonus in some form somewhere ?

The Leader limit without the Admirality and War college is quite painful in late game.

 

[Yugoslavs]

Ah, unique building, so ahistorical.

On the serious note, you could put their bonuses simply at the technology levels where you could build them. Diplomat and +1 relations on diplo tech 6, and so on.

 

[richelieu1628]

I get that with common sense you should pay more attention to your own state but having to pay 220 admin points for Liguria is just ridiculous, especially since it was around 90-100 before the patch. You won't be able to conquer anything that is worth something without missing out on admin tech and ideas.

Rarely have I seen the beauty of the game explained so well, and yet the OP somehow seems to be upset by it. May I suggest the console to fix this problem?

To expound on my reply from yesterday, coring costs have gone up somewhere around 40% compared to 1.11 (more for dipannexation) because we wanted to create some more interesting dynamics where conquering everything around you was not necessarily always the best option.

It is still both possible and rewarding to expand, particularly if you take the right ideas, put money into advisors and use a mix of conquest and diploannexing. As Milan, I was able to unify most of Italy (more than twice starting development of France) in under a century without any core cost reduction, and could easily have done so faster. Growth is slower but it's certainly not 'blobbing now pointless'.

With that said, you are of course free to disagree, but this was an intended change and we knew it would upset some people, so we're not reverting it just because of one angry thread on the forums.

This is seriously one of the best changes of the new patch. It seems totally obvious that this was entirely WAD, but nice to see the logic of it spelled out nonetheless...

 

[bbqftw]

You won't be able to conquer anything that is worth something without missing out on admin tech and ideas

this phenomenon is also known as "playing in Asia"

 

[DicRoNero]

To expound on my reply from yesterday, coring costs have gone up somewhere around 40% compared to 1.11 (more for dipannexation) because we wanted to create some more interesting dynamics where conquering everything around you was not necessarily always the best option.

It is still both possible and rewarding to expand, particularly if you take the right ideas, put money into advisors and use a mix of conquest and diploannexing. As Milan, I was able to unify most of Italy (more than twice starting development of France) in under a century without any core cost reduction, and could easily have done so faster. Growth is slower but it's certainly not 'blobbing now pointless'.

With that said, you are of course free to disagree, but this was an intended change and we knew it would upset some people, so we're not reverting it just because of one angry thread on the forums.

Don't you think that players used to certain level of blobbing are now pretty much forced to play with NIs with bonuses to coring or diplo-annexing or even both? Isn't that too much of one-time increase?

Thanks for -15% culture conversion cost law in parliament, btw. Probably the best min-maxing thing in 1.12 I've got to play with.

 

[indika_tates]

The problem is if you are a OPM or a minor nation you are in trouble. If you are a big power, coring hurts, but if you are a minor, coring stops you. You are making the game more dependant on monarch points which are totally random (unless you are a republic). I'm so dissapointed with this expansion.

 

[Cymsdale]

Don't you think that players used to certain level of blobbing are now pretty much forced to play with NIs with bonuses to coring or diplo-annexing or even both? Isn't that too much of one-time increase?

Yes.

No.

 

[WeissRaben]

Don't you think that players used to certain level of blobbing are now pretty much forced to play with NIs with bonuses to coring or diplo-annexing or even both? Isn't that too much of one-time increase?

Thanks for -15% culture conversion cost law in parliament, btw. Probably the best min-maxing thing in 1.12 I've got to play with.

Where's the symphony to the death of sliders, now? All those "you always did one thing ad libitum, good riddance"? Because now I'm going to be the one playing. Good riddance. Now, if you want every game to be the carbon copy of the one before, you are going to do the same stuff to follow that one specific strategy. That, or switch to other strategies and type of matches.

 

[DicRoNero]

By saying

Don't you think that players used to certain level of blobbing are now pretty much forced to play with NIs with bonuses to coring or diplo-annexing or even both?

I didn't mean this:

Meanwhile, instant-integration decisions are still a thing. So feel free to feed half of Europe to Aragon or Lithuania or Scotland and then absorb it all with the press of a button.

Which apparently makes the list of playable nations longer. LOL?

 

[Lamahorse]

Perhaps late game, technology might reduce coalition truce timers so that we can get the rapid conquest and rapid coalitioning we did in real life with Napoleon.

 

[Korashy]

Possibly, also possibly have the first 25% unlock earlier.

Around admin tech 10 might make sense, since that's where all your nation forming decisions unlock anyways. Would fit in with the theme of centralization.