For the love of god give denmark german culture

[Sikker]

I do think German culture to Denmark could be somewhat justified.
Denmark (as mentioned earlier) had holdings in Germany, and the Danish kings were of German origin (Erik (the king Denmark has in 1419) was known as Erik of Pommern, because ... well, he also ruled Pommern).
Also Denmark was at war with the German Hanseat (or however that is spelled in English), and I am certain that had Denmark been able to subdue them they would have annexed them with success.
One could justify Danish rule of Northern German states as the kings were German, and Denmark had strong ties to Germany. Also, Denmark did not have claims on the Holstein province as such ... Denmark just took it and was able to keep it. If anything they had better claims to Pommern and Oldenburg, and I am certain that if Denmark had been able to take Mecklenburg they would have kept that province as easily as they kept Holstein.

Anyway, the problem is not that Denmark is that much underpowered. The real problems have been pointed out:
- The Danish navy was all-powerful in the Baltic (only threatened by that of the Hanseats), and it was actually useful when at war (which it is not in this game since one can walk from Jyland to Sjæland).
- Conquest works way differently than it did in real life. In real life Sweden took Jyland and almost Sjæland as well (NOT Norway at all) and had they succeded they would have annexed Denmark (though 4/5 of the Danish territory was not under their control. Also at other times Denmark had lost much territory to the Swedes (and others) but because no final defeat had been possible only small territores was given up in the peace deal (mainly those that Denmark couldn't hold anyway).

But many things have been simplified. Sweden is overpowered in the way that Finland actually gives taxes (historically there wasn't much income there), but then Sweden also had the biggest coppermine in all of Europe (actually it was this mine that gave Sweden her dominance when she had her hey-day), and there there is no province simulating the riches Sweden gained from that mine.

Well, anyway, Denmark COULD be given German culture, but things has to be held simple, and Denmark would never have been able to control Germans any further south than the most Northern ones, and therefore no German culture to Denmark.

There never was any REAL rebellions in Finland (not enough people to really care) and I guess that is why Sweden is given Ugric though it has no real justification.

 

[unmerged(11633)]

The real thing with Culture is manpower. Apart from Mercenaries, how many Germans fought in the Danish armies?

 

[Desertfox]

Originally posted by crooktooth
For much of Danish history in this period the language of command in the Danish Army was German. That's because so much of the rank and file (and officers, too) were recruited either in the German-speaking lands of the Danish Crown, or were mercenaries recruited from other Lutheran German territories.

If you start that way, you should give the Dutch government German culture also. 2/3 of the recruits from the Dutch armies and merchant navies came from Germany. And the ruling royalty (the House of Orange-Nassau) was of German descent, it says so in the Dutch National Song. It starts with: "Wilhelmus of Nassau, I am of German blood".

Oh and the Pope relied exclusively on Swiss soldiers. Should you give the Vatican Swiss culture too?

Many rules of EU 2 are a-historical.
Even during the recent Falkland war, the British Special Forces relied on recruits out of the Himalaya area, even though that hasn`t been a British possession for many years, and never had an over-land connection to London.

 

[swilhelm73]

Originally posted by Becephalus
Sorry to jump on you but I am so sick of seing people say so change the files yourself to people, this is obviously warranted when someone is talking about being able to do outrageous things or a specialty scenario and such, but surely a large function of a forum like this is to collectively discuss things that could be changed to make a game better

have a good day

I agreed with your earlier sentiment that this is probably not going to change, though I don't have a strong feeling either way about it myself. So, I was just trying to be helpful and point out that whatever is done officially you could change it yourself too if it really bugged you...that's all.

 

[Languish]

Originally posted by Mad King James
Denmark shouldn't have German, rather Sweden should LOSE Ugric and Austria should never have Czech.

Amen to that!

 

[Valdemar]

Well the reason for the CB shiled on Holstein is that the Royal line of DK was the ruling house of Holstein, thus they gained Supremecy over the ruling Duchy of Holstein,

Denmark for most of the history prior to EU frame went as far south as Eidern (EU province of Mecklemburg) and held most of Pommern at one time or the other. Also should equally gain Baltic culture for the same reasons as Sweden, DK in the Ck timeframe build most of the cities in Balticum (Talinn for example) before selling it to the sword brothers (not teutonic order, but a more local equivalent that merched into TO later).

As to whether or not DK had any real german influence, King Christopher was also German as was most of the nobility, the burghers and the artisans and buacracy, though that off course doesn't make the population German

V

 

[Twoflower]

I am all for giving Denmark German and I'm kinda shocked by some misconceptions (well, not seriously, but I want to rectify ):
- Denmark did not conquer Holstein by opportunity, they inherited it in an entirely legitimate way. The estates of Holstein and Schleswig elected Christian of Oldenburg, the Danish King, as new Duke after the childless death of the last Schauenburg Duke Adolf VIII in 1460 and in the Privilegue of Riben Christian declared the famous rule that Schleswig and Holstein should remain "up ewig ungedelt" (eternally undivided) under Danish rule
- The Eider is certainly not in Mecklenburg, it's the south border of Schleswig
- Denmark never owned Pommern during the EU timeframe (Erik of Pommern was of a Pommeranian sidebranch iirc)
- the last Archbishop of Bremen was prince Frederik of Denmark, hence it was in some way owned by Denmark (more of a vassalage, though), but he never really controlled his possession since it was occupied by Sweden that officially got it in the Peace of Westphalia. During the Great Nordic War it was occupied by Denmark for some years, however eventually passed to Hannover in the peace, hence you cannot say that Denmark ever owned Bremen, either
- the largest part of Oldenburg was inherited by Denmark in 1649 (and exchanged for Holstein-Gottorp in 1762)
- there is one huge difference between German culture for Denmark and for say, France or the Netherlands: the Kings of Denmark were accepted as fully legitimate Imperial princes in their fiefs and granted these territories legally by the Emperor , thus completely acceptable to the German populace and nobility, while the Dutch Republic or France were outside the Empire and regarded as foreign invasors

 

[Earl Grey]

Denmark should not get german culture

If a case for giving Denmark german culture can be made then one can be made for giving it to Sweden as well.

- Denmark controlled german provinces? Well, obviosusly so did Sweden.
- Denmark had a german king? Well, so did Sweden; Karl X Gustav was the son of Johan Kasimir of Pfalz-Zweibrücken.
Perhaps Sweden should gain French culture along with Bernadotte?

 

[BiB]

Just for gameplay reasons alone Denmark shouldn't have German culture.

 

[unmerged(9191)]

Originally posted by BiB
Just for gameplay reasons alone Denmark shouldn't have German culture.

what are those gameplay reasons?

 

[Schaksen]

Originally posted by Imperial Army
what are those gameplay reasons?

As it is danmark is already getting into a mess in germany too early. If Denmark gets german culture the ai will probably try even harder to get into germany. Besides I personally think that the best way would be to separate Sjælland and Jylland so that Sweden will have a harder time grabbing Sjælland (maybe even add a COT in Sjælland to increase it's value?)

 

[Arilou]

Now THAT I have nothing against.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Danemark with german culture will be just too strong. On the other hand it would be historically justified. Die-hard and I see no overall solution.

 

[Dunderdon]

austria gets czech because it owned all of czech and was strong with and because of it, because we want it to hold all of czech, and so on.
all that is not for denmark.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

How about INSTEAD of changing cultures doing THESE things?
* In the sound due event, imposing the dues moves the Mecklemburg CoT to Sjaelland (instead of increasing base tax value)
* The strait Jylland-Sjaelland is removed, thus making it harder to get to siege the Danish capital


If the Danogermanophiles p) still think that Denmark should be able to get German culture somehow, I'd suggest that it happens as a result of Norway not being incorporated into Denmark (i.e. Denmark doesn't end up getting any CB shields on the Norwegian provinces, but instead gains German culture as the focus of the country shifts more to the south than it did historically).

 

[N Katsyev]

Personally, I believe German is completely justified historically for Denmark, had a big thing about it somewhere in another thread a while back. However, I also said in this, that i'd be weary of putting it in, as it would get horribly abused. I don't want to ever see Denmark owning all of N. Germany, it would be simply absurd looking. And while i'd never do it as a player, there are plenty more not like me who think only of expanding their country at the expense of realism. I suggested we could possibly change Holstien to Scandinavian culture, just so Denmark gains full manpower from this province, which as far as I can tell Denmark did in fact use Germans from the area extensively in her armies.

I do however want to see Sjaeland seperated as an island. With my Johan-tweaked land connection rules in, this would hurt Denmark much less than it would have before, as a smart Denmark, is a naval Denmark. The Danish navy was very powerful (until the damned English stole it ), and as its been pointed out, saved Copenhagen numerous times from occupation. Invading armies just simply could not get there without a navy aside from the much talked about winter ice crossing, which was a completel historical fluke.

 

[unmerged(1878)]

The only way Denmark should be able to get German culture is as part of alternate-history events as I feel the <somewhat iffy> historical reasons do not outweigh the immense costs to gameplay. I agree with the notion that Denmark should be strengthened, *especially* its navy, which is basically what kept it afloat, minus some exceptional luck in certain wars with Sweden . Perhaps increase dramatically the effect of the Sound Due? The benefits of it seem a bit limp when you consider that every ship passing through the Sund had to pay a duty to the crown of Denmark until the 19th century.

 

[N Katsyev]

I just say we move CoT from Meck to Copenhagen with the Sund Due event. No more every player country in the world annexing Meck everytime, and Denmark would get that much stronger.

 

[unmerged(9563)]

yeah but a smart Denmark would either annex or force-vassalize it in the first war anyway....

And uh.... as I said before they key to making Sweeden worse is to hurt Sweeden. Of course that'll never happen. IMO if it does, their manpower should be made shit, as it was historically.

 

[Schaksen]

Originally posted by KwangTiger
yeah but a smart Denmark would either annex or force-vassalize it in the first war anyway....

A smart Denmark isn't an AI Denmark... And when Denmark tried in real life the united Hansa proved to strong for them.

Originally posted by KwangTiger
And uh.... as I said before they key to making Sweeden worse is to hurt Sweeden. Of course that'll never happen. IMO if it does, their manpower should be made shit, as it was historically.

I agree if Sweden want's to field a large army it must be funded by foreign funds as it was historically.

I stand by my previous assumption that Denmark should get a COT and that the straight should be remove, Denmark was afterall heavily mercantilistic and got into several wars with the Hansa to keep them out of Denmark.