For the love of god automate the air

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YellowDrax

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The #1 think the air mechanics need isn't automation, it's fixing the bloody UI. My favourite aspect of the game is spending hours manually making 200 size air wings by scrolling through hundreds of random planes you picked up in a tiny window with no filter.

Why can't you filter by airplane type, like fighter? Why can't you filter by 'home nation' (especially since foreign equipment gets used in reinforcements)? Why can't you save the window position after you make an air wing, so you don't have to find the planes each and every time? Why not allow me to make multiple 200 size air wings at a time? Why even need to assign air wing size at all? There is no reason to have any size other than 200 planes in a wing. So it's not like my choice matters. I HAVE to assign 200 planes to a wing manually. If I assign a larger number to make it a bit less of a slog, my wings will overstack airports. It's honestly just an infuriating waste of time that often results in me not using thousands of my air planes because I assigning wings is FAR more hassle than assigning missions/regions.

Why more people aren't annoyed by this is beyond me. It's literally been this way since the game came out and honestly, it's the worst UI I've ever dealt with in a game, ever. I'm not even being dramatic. No other game has a UI that's so annoying, finicky, and time consuming, for a pretty significant part of the game.
 
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Zauberelefant

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The #1 think the air mechanics need isn't automation, it's fixing the bloody UI. My favourite aspect of the game is spending hours manually making 200 size air wings by scrolling through hundreds of random planes you picked up in a tiny window with no filter.

Why can't you filter by airplane type, like fighter? Why can't you filter by 'home nation' (especially since foreign equipment gets used in reinforcements)? Why can't you save the window position after you make an air wing, so you don't have to find the planes each and every time? Why not allow me to make multiple 200 size air wings at a time? Why even need to assign air wing size at all? There is no reason to have any size other than 200 planes in a wing. So it's not like my choice matters. I HAVE to assign 200 planes to a wing manually. If I assign a larger number to make it a bit less of a slog, my wings will overstack airports. It's honestly just an infuriating waste of time that often results in me not using thousands of my air planes because I assigning wings is FAR more hassle than assigning missions/regions.

Why more people aren't annoyed by this is beyond me. It's literally been this way since the game came out and honestly, it's the worst UI I've ever dealt with in a game, ever. I'm not even being dramatic. No other game has a UI that's so annoying, finicky, and time consuming, for a pretty significant part of the game.
True, but there are reasons to make wing size adjustable - carrier wings and very small airports, which basically are the same problem.
The administrative aspect of the air war is in fact ludicrous.
 
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Mister Analyst

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iirc the define, it's anything over 300
@el nora

Is this the define NAI STR_BOMB_MIN_ENEMY_FIGHTERS_IN_AREA = 300, -- If amount of enemy fighters is higher than this mission won't perform, from the wiki page defines, that you were referring to?
 
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Kanitatlan

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I think a great deal needs to be done to improve this particular aspect of air power. To illustrate the difficulties that can occur, especially late game, in relation to air operations I'm going to run through the issues I typically (multi-play through) see playing the "follow on war" as the Soviets. This is usually in the period 1944-1945 and so isn't really outside the normal time period of the game but is late on.

Scenario is a Soviet player already dominating Eurasia, WW2 is over and in a war against the allies
  • The USA typically has several thousand B29s. The allies have airbases scattered around the periphery of Eurasia and can bomb anywhere
  • Strategic bombing in the middle of asia - I have no way of telling where these bombers are coming from, they just teleport from unspecified base to the target area
  • Deploying 400 fighters to every air zone consumes a fantastic number of fighters. The long range of strategic bombers at this point in the game makes this sort of air defence ridiculous and truly impractical
  • Once fighters are present it can be very difficult to determine quickly where bombing is taking place other than checking the repair queue
  • Once mainland Europe is taken the main effect suppressing allied strategic bombing is that the available airfields are fully stacked with other aircraft. This is a side effect of the fact that air production can easily produce vast air forces which exceed the airbase capacity of controlled territory. This is partially a result of the AI not going full build on ALL available states but also that each state is limited to 2,000 aircraft
  • If the Soviets fly air superiority over the UK for long enough strategic bombing starts increasing as airbase space becomes available. These bombers can operate from UK bases despite the air being filled with swarms of Soviet fighters. For some reason no attempt is made to develop slightly more distance air bases
  • Air intel about units operating from a base is dependent entirely on air intel versus the base owner and unaffected (as far as I can tell) by air intel on the nation owning the aircraft. This means that you can't tell which foreign bases are operating US strategic bombers and which are operating other aircraft types except by trying to interpret mission counts in nearby air zones
  • The most effective weapon for fixing air war problems is the A-bomb (it is pretty much all I use them for). I'm grateful this technique is available since nothing else really works.
  • In Siberia / Central Asia some air zones are very difficult to defend because of the air zone size remains much larger than fighter range. And, of course, flying to the totally empty target free areas is as important as flying to the bits that actually need defending
This list is just touching on things others haven't really gone into. There are further aspects the emphasise the broken nature of late game air warfare.

For example, having repeatedly played the Soviet-Allies follow on war, invading the USA is easiest if you massively delay invading the UK as approaching the USA whilst they still have large numbers of aircraft is impractical due to the massive imbalance in potential air basing. To be fair, this is just as true for a German game. The issue is driven by the same "not enough base capacity" issue as mentioned for allied operations from the UK. Ultimately late game air victory can be profoundly influences by the basic game airbase geography. The fact is that you could easily build say 2,000 square miles of airbase in England without running out of places to build them. You might reduce food production by 3% but you could easily base 100,000 aircraft if you really, really wanted to.

My understanding is the airbase issue is even more significant for multi-player as human players are much more efficient at production creating larger air forces and targeted airbase bombing (strategic bombing) means that human players need more spare capacity.

The main gist of all this is that the Air war needs a great deal more attention than just a bit of automation and I hesitate to make suggestions because I have no idea the scale of development resources Paradox are willing to devote to it.
 
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izadirad1

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You can assign air wings to armies right? thats what I do.

I put small air fleets onto each general to follow them along as best as possible, then I have larger airforces for specific targets such as for naval invasions or for important fronts.
 

kaguravitro

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It's horrible to admit, even if it was not my favorite hoi 2 feature, and it's one of the only thing working as intended in hoi 4, but airings as units had advantages, not perforce for sure. Independent of the region balance (where air superiority is calculated) the dogfight and interception of planes and the limitation of planes working at the same time are things I miss.what I don't miss of the management of the planes possible with the spies, much boring thing to handle to still in considering it better than now, even if I don't hate hoi iv system.
Maybe reducing the sorty eficiency of land based planes to get less plans at same times could help actual system 5000 staked in a region its not good
 

duke engin

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I think it took more than the time it took with land & naval warfare combined, before I felt like I got a basic understanding of "how air stuff work". Now, when dealing with planes, half the time I still don't know what I am doing.

Some of the comments asking for making things more understandable, or making some actions easier are relatable for me. However, there is a difference between making things "easier, more understandable" and making them "simpler".

Between the "give the option to automate all, make it easier" people and "make everything simpler" folk, I wanna say a few things.

Air zones & range (disagreements with comments):

I see comments suggesting riddance of air zones and/or making it possible to give generalized orders to planes and to make them operate freely within their range.

I guess air zones are necessary for working a system built on top of the underlying "states system". Especially with air detection mechanic. Air detection is always relevant for a specific zone modified by the states within it (and other non state-specific modifiers too). It's impractical for the game to calculate our air detection on every single pixel on the map separately and even if it did, we don't engage the enemy air wings in the middle of nowhere just to "kill stuff". We either protect a friendly zone from bombers by performing interception missions or we bomb an enemy controlled zone ourselves. Therefore, we should be showing where that zone is before we order the air wings to get ready for fighting anything, as already is in the game. Otherwise, we're saying "respond to every threat / bomb everything detected within 2000 kms and when you take off, kill everything until you run out of fuel and come back". That doesn't seem realistic to me.

We shouldn't be able to give vague orders to planes. There has to be some kind of an area where the orders relate, which are relevant to geography, states, provinces and countries. The current division of these air zones and scaling of range in those could be a topic of discussion though.

Exception: Close Air Support missions. These boys need to actually cover where the combat is, what they do has less relevance to the zone. They could be independent from air zones, that could still be realistic.

Air zones & range (agreements with comments):

In my understanding of the current system, the "range" of an aircraft is not there to be interpreted as a "set" number which tells us how far it can fly & return. It is a general scale of how capable that plane is for operating at longer distances and for longer durations. So it is neither a "limit", nor it is a "guarantee". Even if you assign a short range aircraft to an airbase in the middle of a large air zone, that aircraft's performance of its mission has an effect on the entire air zone scaled by its range (except for close air support, where it can't perform if its range circle doesn't cover the province where combat happens). So it's not like it doesn't cover the areas its range suggests it's unable to reach, it covers the whole zone whatever its range but with reduced efficiency. This is so big of a game changing information which is so NOT mentioned or hinted in-game that it's unbelievable.

The problem with this is when all you want to do is to perform a mission on a state which is at the edge of an air zone, it is better to base your planes at the air base which is farther away from where you're concerned with, but is more central to the air zone. Doesn't seem to make much sense but I'm not sure if this has some logic to it.

Maybe it's to include the fact that for example air wings on interception mission can't be limited to fight right on top of the city they're supposed to protect. They may sometimes try to engage enemy bombers further away at certain favourable conditions. Vice-versa, bombers may sometimes take certain courses, make detours to perform better so they can't be expected to operate on a small area and not anywhere else. Maybe the way air zones are set in game have something to do with real world conditions (common weather, common conditions somehow, operation practicality or something on those lines). Maybe it is to make range a more relevant stat in the game. Maybe because there are certain things about air warfare that I'm not aware of, which make this system more logical. Or, it's just a design flaw, a scaling issue. A suggestion in this sense may be making air zones flexible by giving the player the ability to precisely define what their desired zone for a mission is by selecting states and adding them to the mission. If there's not a case of "common conditions" or "undividable certain operational things" with air zones, flexible zones seem like it could be a solution. If anyone has any information or insight about this, I'd be happy to know.

In any case, I agree that the difficulties with the clicking involved when arranging air wings due to this mechanic should be offset somehow. With some sort of an ability to easily set air wings to efficiently cover a certain area maybe. There's a button with fleets which allow us to "split this fleet into balanced task forces". Maybe something similar for air wings too? We select the wings, select the zone/zones, select their mission and then click a "scale" button. They get organized in balanced wings and relocate as necessary to cover that area.

There's also the issue with close air support planes assigned to armies relocating themselves to central airbases and losing their ability to participate in combats anymore... The game seems to be confused about some conflicting systems (you need to be central to be more efficient but you also need to actually range the combat to be able to contribute. you pick efficiency and ignore the other condition: the result is better efficiency with zero contribution).

Finally, clearer warnings are needed imho when we're getting badly strat bombed. There's no way to realize that until we click the states and check the building "HP"s shown there or until we scroll down in the construction tab to see what is being repaired. There's only "enemy has air superiority" alert to the right but that's doesn't always mean "you're getting bombed to medieval age". With pop-ups on the map (like convoy raid pop-ups) and/or alerts at the alert strip at the top maybe?

It probably took more effort to write this than it ever took to arrange planes in game for me so it's really not about the effort, just the satisfaction you get when playing a well-designed, complex but informative game. :)
 
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duke engin

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