For the inversion of trade posts' value per level

[unmerged(90)]

What's the use of developping trade posts beyond level 1 ?
Now, with level 1, your trade post has a value of X. This value reaches 2X when the trade post reaches level 6.
Consequence : if you have to place a trade post, 'colonize' another province instead of increasing your existing post. This leads to a quick land expansion using trade posts.

I would rather prefer that the more traders you send, the more the value of the post increases.

If we have to reach 2X with 6 traders, I would propose the following values :
1 trader : 1/4X
2 traders : 1/2X
3 traders : 4/5 X
4 traders : 6/5X
5 traders : 8/5X
6 traders : 2X

What do you think?

 

[unmerged(554)]

You are absolutely right. As it is there is no point in improving an existing trading post, especially since you cannot build any defenses in it. You much rather spread out all over the map with level 1 posts.

Good suggestion, I'm all for it.

 

[Dunhere]

Hello yndenwal,

historicaly, I think that focusing on few but profitable trading posts seems more accurate.
I think it's a good idea, but I do not have the training since i'm still waiting for the Game


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Dunhere
Thane of Harrowdale

'Toquey si Gaouses' Gaston Phébus

 

[Freodin]

It´s better to build a new level 1 trade post.

1. It gets you more income.
2. You get the additional land (and the enemy doesn´t get it)
3. You loose a lv1 post as fast as a lv6.

It´s sad, but true. You don´t even get a better chance to colonize on a lv6 TP.

 

[unmerged(90)]

Originally posted by Freodin:
It´s better to build a new level 1 trade post.

1. It gets you more income.
2. You get the additional land (and the enemy doesn´t get it)
3. You loose a lv1 post as fast as a lv6.

It´s sad, but true. You don´t even get a better chance to colonize on a lv6 TP.

That's exactly why I want this system to change ! There should be a reward for developping Trade Posts...

 

[Rio]

Agree... Might want a bonus for chance to colonize/population bonus as well unless this is included in the increasing value of 'x' per the above model?

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Rio ~/|~

 

[Oranje]

Originally posted by yndenwal:

I would rather prefer that the more traders you send, the more the value of the post increases.

If we have to reach 2X with 6 traders, I would propose the following values :
1 trader : 1/4X
2 traders : 1/2X
3 traders : 4/5 X
4 traders : 6/5X
5 traders : 8/5X
6 traders : 2X

What do you think?

I agree that this seems to be a good idea Yndenwal. Concentration on fewer territories should be rewarded.

Two remarks though.
1. Colonizing would get a lot harder if the revenue for the first traders you send in was effectively cut by 75% as you suggest.
I wonder if the consequences wouldn't be to harsh.

2. The AI should be tweaked to recognize the need to build up TP's as well, otherwise the idea would backfire (i.e. produce weaker AI opponents).

I'm interested in the opinion Johan and/or other betatesters have on the matter.



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greetings, Oranje
Link to my EU fanpage, includes a FAQ section

Common sense is the set of prejudices acquired at age eighteen.
Albert Einstein

 

[unmerged(168)]

I can see the logic in diminishing returns for larger trading posts.

After all, the first few traders will pick up the 'low hanging fruit' while the later arrivals will have to fan out in search of more trade goods.

It also represents the fact that 'natives' often collect the goods that the initial traders want. At least in North America that was the case for furs.

It sounds to me like the game designers want you to colonize instead of grow trade posts.

 

[unmerged(385)]

i agree whit yndenwal

 

[unmerged(548)]

It sounds to me like the game designers want you to colonize instead of grow trade posts.

You have a point, but the problem is that currently developing a TP beyond 1 level is almost pointless (at least compaired to establishing a new one).
This is very much the contrary to how the BG works where (IIRC) a Lvl 6 TP could generate up to 5-6x the income of a lvl 1 TP. Then again in the BG you had a lot fewer colonists so it might be a gamebalancing thing.

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/ Stefan Huszics EU FAQ
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[unmerged(725)]

Huszics, I think that in the BG (I may be incorrect, as I don't have the rules in front of me) that trading posts levels 1-3 (i.e., '-' side trading posts) produced income equal to their level (in ducats), plus harvested one special resource per level. Side '+' trading posts (levels 4-6) earned the owning player 2xLevel (in ducats) plus one special resource per level.

So actually, a level 1 TP appeared 12 times less valuable than a level 6 in the BG. But that was not really the case, since each level of TP (I think) brought in one unit of special resources (ivory, etc).

The growth was [1-2-3-8-10-12] (straight ducat income; i.e., fixed), PLUS [1-2-3-4-5-6] TIMES (value of special resource; i.e. fluctuating with market value of that resource).

Does that seem right? How about that model for the CG?

That system seems to encourage growth of TP's without making it imperative. Consider the following scenario:

1 Large TP vs. 3 Small TPs

1 Large (size 6): Base income 12 ducats; 6 resources (let's say, Ivory at 7 ducats per for a total of 42 ducats); Grand Total 54 ducats.

3 Small (each size 2): Base income 3x2 ducats, total 6; 6 resources (Ivory at 7 per for a total of 42 ducats); Grand Total 48 ducats.

You can see that, providing the same expense is undertaken for the est. of one large as three small, that under this system there is SOME incentive to build large trading posts, but it's not overwhelming. That could help preserve game realism (i.e. there won't be chunks of the Americas completely untouched by 1792) while advancing the interest of a colonising nation that decides, nope, just gonna have a few biggies.

Even if that wasn't the BG model... it seems appropriate, doesn't it?

Nelson

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Ey. Surly only looks out for one guy -- Surly.

 

[unmerged(90)]

Originally posted by Keifer:
I can see the logic in diminishing returns for larger trading posts.

After all, the first few traders will pick up the 'low hanging fruit' while the later arrivals will have to fan out in search of more trade goods.

It also represents the fact that 'natives' often collect the goods that the initial traders want. At least in North America that was the case for furs.

It sounds to me like the game designers want you to colonize instead of grow trade posts.

Decreasing revenues theory,yes I know. But I do not feel it appropriate. After all, in the current system, one level of TP is 10 men! They won't get all the good stuff alone.
(Ok there are natives...)

Moreover, as only one country can possess a trade post in a given province, there is no international competition.

The balance would be that each trader give x/3 revenue...

 

[unmerged(90)]

Originally posted by Oranje:
Two remarks though.
1. Colonizing would get a lot harder if the revenue for the first traders you send in was effectively cut by 75% as you suggest.
I wonder if the consequences wouldn't be to harsh.

That's a fact and thinking of it, I did not want to invert the actual system (ie taking 5 traders to reach X and the sixth one would reach 2X). A more linear approach sounded good to me.

Of course, let's take ten traders (cost 10 each).
In the actual system, if you get six TP with ivory (x=21), you'll get 6*21 = 126.
With my system, you would get 6*1/4 X = 31,5 with Six level 1 TPs and, with one level 6 (optimal)TP 2*21=42.

So, to preserve the game balance, cost for traders should be divided by three ti keep the same ROI.

 

[unmerged(812)]

I don't think the income progression should be linear. TPs are too cheap to have that kind of effect IMO. But I'd like to see the chance of successful colonization improved by, say 5% per level instead of the straight 5% as it is now.

 

[unmerged(358)]

That would make lots of sense Nebar for the small Protestant minors... As a colony with it's cost of 70-100ducats is a lot to bet on a 50% chance, it would be nice to be able to slowly build up a TP and as such getting money while you build it up, so that when you finally try to make a colony your chance for getting something for your investment is rather large... Since small minors often only get around 50-100d each year this seems reasonable...

Cobos

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If you are not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate.

 

[unmerged(548)]

But I'd like to see the chance of successful colonization improved by, say 5% per level instead of the straight 5% as it is now.

Your suggestion is just plain bad.
Once you build a colony should you loose that +30% you collected from 6 lvls of TP's ?
If not would you then have +30% +5%/colony level ?
How do you intend keeping play balance with a system like that?
Spain and Portugal for instance, with alot of settlers early on, would easily get 95% chanse to colonize even with 20.000 angry natives standing around.
Would really make it hard for those small countries to even find an empty spot to colonise.

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[unmerged(703)]

I have to admit that I only use the trade post to block other for the province.....

I think that if the level 7 trade station was the colony level 1, then the whole issue would be less important. The cost would be similar for the colony (except the 6 settlers) and you get a colony in a difficult colony spot.....

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bmolsson
*Just passing by*

 

[unmerged(90)]

Could we have a designer's point of view and an historian/economist's point of view on this subject?

That would be great.

 

[unmerged(548)]

Huszics, I think that in the BG (I may be incorrect, ...

Nope it's

TP income
lvl 1-3: 1D + avaliable resources (max 1-3)
lvl 4-6: 2D + available resources (max 4-6)

Colony (just for reference)
lvl 1-3: (lvl+area tax)D + resources
lvl 4-6: (lvl+ 2xarea tax)D + resources


Hehe, finally got you back good for messing with me about the BG Terra Incognitia areas ,-)

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[unmerged(725)]

Huszics... Ha! You're right about that. I surrender! Good to see another BG'er out there. Not to trumpet the BG, but there were some AMAZING ideas there. Even so, the CG is fantastic, for all it did and didn't adopt...

Nelson

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Ey. Surly only looks out for one guy -- Surly.