For Pope or Patriarch?

[JonathanOfArc]

Starting in 867 I'm trying for my first full game until the end date. Currently the King of Poland with lands right where they normally are, but I've also just recently subjugated most of Lithuania and stripped them of their lands. At this point I want to convert over to Christianity and install the proper culture and religion lords. I was planning on going Catholic but seeing as Orthodoxy has been doing so well, i have had second thoughts.

A Makedon got on a French/Italian throne and converted the place. The Hungarians also picked it up before settling. Since I'm going to try to see this all the way through, I figured I'd see what others thought might be the funner choice between the two religions.

I really like control over vassals in Orthodoxy. Since I'd have my on Patriarch i could just excommunicate anyone who steps out of line. Although with Catholicism you've got crusades and holy orders. When the mongols come or maybe even the Aztecs, the holy orders do come in handy.

Which way should I go? Join the growing Orthodoxy, or revive the waning Catholics?

 

[FrosT37]

I'd go Catholic. Then vassalize the pope.

At this point, the only difference with Orthodox is that you will be able to request crusades. There are no crusades for Orthodox.

 

[Caspoi]

Join the orthodox, mayby they can restore the schism (something I have never seen the AI do). Also you could take a third option and stay pagan, possibly reform the faith.

 

[thevmag]

Thing about Orthodox is that control of your vassals only counts if they're under your patriarch. If you've got a second kingdom going, or you start having vassals that fall under other patriarchs, there's nothing you can do about them.

 

[Sonmi]

Don't go Orthodox, mate.

You'll be missing out on all of those nice crusades, all of those free kingdoms taken from the filthy heathens.

 

[Gans]

Basically almost everything is superior to Orthodox. Autocephaly is decent until the point you grow big enough to have multiple partiarchs. From there on, it loses even the excommunicate anyone whenever advantage, so unless if you are roleplaying, even reformed slavic would be better.

 

[JonathanOfArc]

Join the orthodox, mayby they can restore the schism (something I have never seen the AI do). Also you could take a third option and stay pagan, possibly reform the faith.

That's sort of what I would be hoping for. I like the idea that such a big change is happening and would be happening more so in the future. Western Europe functioning under Orthodox rules, while having minimal involvement in it's implementation. Totally righteous!

On the other hand, it's true, I wouldn't get to control the rulers under different kingdoms once an empire happens. I also fear what might happen without the holy orders. The Sunni have Spain and are making way into Aquiatine. If the Catholics are weak, there won't be much stopping Andalusia. I think it would be interesting to see where the world would go if I were Orthodox, but I feel like Catholic will be the safer bet.

 

[Woifee]

Go catholic.

If they end schism you can join them since you are heresy then.

You can still marry into orthodox and press claims.

Or use the chance and go Fraticelli.

 

[Caspoi]

That's sort of what I would be hoping for. I like the idea that such a big change is happening and would be happening more so in the future. Western Europe functioning under Orthodox rules, while having minimal involvement in it's implementation. Totally righteous!

On the other hand, it's true, I wouldn't get to control the rulers under different kingdoms once an empire happens. I also fear what might happen without the holy orders. The Sunni have Spain and are making way into Aquiatine. If the Catholics are weak, there won't be much stopping Andalusia. I think it would be interesting to see where the world would go if I were Orthodox, but I feel like Catholic will be the safer bet.

Then form a secular alliance with the french kings and help them fight Andalucia that way. By the time you have become emperor what is the easiest option should no longer be a priority as things are going your way anyway.

 

[JonathanOfArc]

If you win the first crusade for Jerusalem, you can vassalize two of the holy orders. Raising them is then cheaper. Is this the case if the first crusade is called for a different area? I've only noticed when I've personally gained Jerusalem via crusade.

How much of a priority is that for you when playing a Catholic? Is it important for you to secure those, or not?

 

[Caspoi]

If you win the first crusade for Jerusalem, you can vassalize two of the holy orders. Raising them is then cheaper. Is this the case if the first crusade is called for a different area? I've only noticed when I've personally gained Jerusalem via crusade.

How much of a priority is that for you when playing a Catholic? Is it important for you to secure those, or not?

Holy orders are a nice (if unreriable, as you can only use them against infidels) addition to your retinue which if they are vassalized come at a low cost. The Christian ones are especially good as they are largely made up of heavy cavalry.

 

[DPS]

Unless you have a good RP reason to go either Catholic or Orthodox, or one of them is so strong that you don't feel safe going up against them, stay pagan and reform the Slavic faith. That way, you'll always have a country conquest CB you can use against either type of Christian (or, indeed, against any non-Slavic ruler).

 

[AlexArgos]

The Orthodox have a Holy Order too (the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulcher) but of course 1 is a lot less than what the Catholics have. Also keep in mind that making holy orders your vassals means you can't offer them money for piety anymore. So leave at least one outside your realm.

On the screenshot the Muslim nations still look very strong so the Crusades mechanic is probably still crucial for keeping them out of the rest of Europe. And knowing how bad the AI is with picking Crusade targets it would probably be best if you influence matters yourself. If the Orthodox keep doing OK (how many patriarchates do they actually own?) you could always convert to Orthodoxy later (after saving Europe from the green blobs).

 

[Greybeard0815]

If you win the first crusade for Jerusalem, you can vassalize two of the holy orders. Raising them is then cheaper. Is this the case if the first crusade is called for a different area? I've only noticed when I've personally gained Jerusalem via crusade.

How much of a priority is that for you when playing a Catholic? Is it important for you to secure those, or not?

The decision to vassalize the Knights Templar and Hospitallers is tied to the title of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. So it doesn't matter where the first crusade is called.

Other advantages of being Catholic:

• As Emperor you can set up an anti-pope and then claim the Papacy, which makes the Pope your vassal. This gives you a huge bonus to taxes because the Pope gets church taxes from all Catholic bishops who like the Pope more than their liege.
• You can send unwanted and unmarried relatives to the holy orders by ordering them to take the vows. If they become Grandmaster you will gain a huge bonus to your monthly prestige gains.
• A vassalized Pope will allow you to use the "claim" option on most titles and he will almost never refuse if he is your vassal.
  
• If you loose the lands of Jerusalem to a Jihad, you can still keep the Kingdom title of Jerusalem. If the Pope launches the next Crusade for Jerusalem other Catholics will fight for you. Doesn't matter who wins, since you still own the title all gains from the Crusade will go to you. You don't even need to join the Crusade.

Orthodox religion has almost no gameplay value. The only reason to choose Orthodox is for RP reasons.

 

[Bernard95]

I'd look at like this- how much do you care about Crusades and the possibility to vassalize the Pope? If neither are at the top of your priority list, I'd honestly go with Orthodoxy. You could see about marrying into Hungary and the ERE (you would at least be the right religion should you end up ruling over Hungarians or Greeks) and see where that takes you or alternatively shoot for an Orthodox heresy and see if you can holy your way to victory. Being a heretic also means you could revoke titles from Orthodox characters, which could come in handy. Any branch of Orthodoxy would also allow you to get taxes out of your bishops, which is the only flaw (albeit a minor one) with Catholicism.

On a side note, I could also easily see you reforming the Slavic faith (or even converting over to Romuva since all the holy sites are conveniently clumped together), assuming your moral authority isn't in the toilet. Christianity is more polarized than normal, making it that much easier when you go to do holy wars.

 

[Nyrael]

Until PDS puts their fingers to work and fleshes out the Orthodox faith, Catholic is better option because it puts more things to the table.

 

[balmung60]

Screw them both - reform the Slavic faith and keep their dead god out of your realm. Keep county conquest, gain holy war, gain a free vassalized religious head, gain a holy order immediately, keep raiding when feudal, keep concubinage when feudal, get more levies (reformed Slavic and Romuva get +20% to both levies and garrisons), and keep your ridonkulous +80% all unit defense when fighting heathens in your homeland. All you lose is the turbo attrition effect.

However, if you must submit to the cross, there's only one right answer - Messalianism. You get Jesus AND Lucifer AND incest marriages for bonus vassal opinion AND gender equality. And they have a holy order, even if it's tricky to get it if you don't start in the Middle East. And they can still get the Jeanne d'Archetype event sequence and other Christian-only stuff.

 

[Kumicho]

Screw them both - reform the Slavic faith and keep their dead god out of your realm. Keep county conquest, gain holy war, gain a free vassalized religious head, gain a holy order immediately, keep raiding when feudal, keep concubinage when feudal, get more levies (reformed Slavic and Romuva get +20% to both levies and garrisons), and keep your ridonkulous +80% all unit defense when fighting heathens in your homeland. All you lose is the turbo attrition effect.

However, if you must submit to the cross, there's only one right answer - Messalianism. You get Jesus AND Lucifer AND incest marriages for bonus vassal opinion AND gender equality. And they have a holy order, even if it's tricky to get it if you don't start in the Middle East. And they can still get the Jeanne d'Archetype event sequence and other Christian-only stuff.

So all he has to do is convert to Nestorianism, and then wait for the Messalian heresy event to fire? Shouldn't be too hard............

Honestly, the one thing I'd worry about with any of these decisions is getting bored. Blobbing gets old quickly for me, so I'd pick something that kept me from growing unchecked if it were my game (so no vassalizing the Pope). Maybe reform Slavic and see how long you can make it last?

 

[JonathanOfArc]

The plan was to play through to the end and then maybe see about converting over to EU4. Both things I've never done.

I liked the new defensive pagan additions but was never aiming to reform. The fact I'd be going into EU4 makes me lean towards Catholic. Things like the reformation happening would be fun to experience in a world that isn't just from a regular EU4 start date. I've never even played Orthodox in EU4 so that could be a point for them, but I just figured they would be similar but limited like in CK2.

"The Plan" would be to go as far east as Lithuania and as far west as the Saxony, Denmark, northern Germany type places. After that not really expanding so much and just trying to keep my place. Poking into other's business and holding out until EU4 times. Taking other land or losing land would be fine, I'm up for things not going perfectly.

 

[balmung60]

So all he has to do is convert to Nestorianism, and then wait for the Messalian heresy event to fire? Shouldn't be too hard............

Honestly, the one thing I'd worry about with any of these decisions is getting bored. Blobbing gets old quickly for me, so I'd pick something that kept me from growing unchecked if it were my game (so no vassalizing the Pope). Maybe reform Slavic and see how long you can make it last?

Well, the Messalian thing isn't entirely serious, but I find the oddball mechanics far more fun than sitting in boring Catholicland or dealing with the Orthodox snoozefest.

The plan was to play through to the end and then maybe see about converting over to EU4. Both things I've never done.

I liked the new defensive pagan additions but was never aiming to reform. The fact I'd be going into EU4 makes me lean towards Catholic. Things like the reformation happening would be fun to experience in a world that isn't just from a regular EU4 start date. I've never even played Orthodox in EU4 so that could be a point for them, but I just figured they would be similar but limited like in CK2.

"The Plan" would be to go as far east as Lithuania and as far west as the Saxony, Denmark, northern Germany type places. After that not really expanding so much and just trying to keep my place. Poking into other's business and holding out until EU4 times. Taking other land or losing land would be fine, I'm up for things not going perfectly.

The Protestant Reformation will go about the same as vanilla EU4, if much slower and probably weaker, owing to a sharp reduction in Catholic realms (more Catholic nations means more countries generating reform desire, and with the huge Orthodox coverage, that's not really on the table). The main factor for where it catches on when it does fire is culture, but even there, Orthodox is getting spread all over the place.

Orthodox in EU4 is basically just a slider that lets you periodically trade tax for manpower and conversion strength as events fire.