For King and Country

[Falastur]

Honestly I have no idea what I was thinking of, except that in my head I had this undoubted concept that the Communists were pushed back to the north but the Republic of China overstretched itself and let the Communists fight back. I also had this idea in my head that an American general was responsible. Having double-checked t'internets though, you guys are right - the Americans weren't involved. Honestly I'm pretty confused right now.

Oh well, that point is void then, since I can neither spot what I was originally thinking of, nor reconcile it to this AAR. I'm still interested as to the future of China, though...

 

[Nathan Madien]

Honestly I'm pretty confused right now.

It's okay. We were able to help you out.

 

[Porkman]

Honestly I have no idea what I was thinking of, except that in my head I had this undoubted concept that the Communists were pushed back to the north but the Republic of China overstretched itself and let the Communists fight back.

This sentence is entirely correct. The communists were losing terribly in Manchuria for the first two or three months, but the Nationalist systemic problems were too great. They're economy had collapsed during the war with Japan, inflation was at Weimar republic, wheelbarrows full of cash levels. Unlike the German example, however, government officials were still getting vastly wealthy and very publically spending that money. The army had been modernized and airlifted in but most of the officers hadn't been trained how to use the modern weapons that they had. The 8 American trained and equipped divisions were the only ones capable of modern mobile operations and they were ordered to hold the cities. Chiang Kai Shek would call individual brigade commanders and countermand their existing orders from 1000 miles away. The average nationalist soldier had been conscripted, marched on foot hundreds of miles, tied up naked during the night to prevent desertion, had his rations sold by his superior officers, not been paid at all, and dreamed of escape. Communist soldiers, by contrast, had usually volunteered, were comparitively well fed, and had a personal stake in the form of land and family, in the new communist government. Over 1 million nationalist soldiers switched sides sometimes at gunpoint but generally as a way to improve their own material conditions. (This isn't to say that the communists treated their soldiers very well, just that the nationalists treated their soldiers astoundingly poorly.) The Nationalists were already beyond overstretched when they started their offensive.

A British General said that the Chinese war in Manchuria "would be comedy of errors if the results weren't so tragic."

 

[Nathan Madien]

No wonder the Communists won in China.

 

[unmerged(28944)]

Kurt_Steiner - I'm hoping it doesn't come to war (yes, I did say that :wacko as the Far East is VERY weak on the land side of the equation. But if it does come to war, not only Tokyo will be rubble by the time the British Empire is done.

trekaddict - Nay, nay, my friend. Sadly we won't be seeing any Lancs flying over Nippon if it comes to war. But perhaps some early arriving V bombers if things go certain ways. Wouldn't that be nice?

GhostWriter - As always, ol' friend, many thanks for your colorful words of praise!

Nathan Madien - Is it sad to admit that I had that thought running around in the back of my head while I was writing that and could not for the life of me figure out the connection?

Dead William - Well, DW, this time it'll be the Soviet's fault... unless something comes up to change that of course.

El Pip - Very perseptive, my friend. Do you think you can loan yourself to the Foreign Office and deliever that info to Tokyo. I only need the Japanese to hold off until I can crush Moscow, then they (the Japanese) can play with their prejudicies all they want.

Falastur - True, the RN is ready to sale to the Far East to take on the IJN as is the majority of the RAF, and yes it will be some time before the British Army can get on station (maybe, maybe not). Regarding China... don't worry about the ChiComs. The Japanse and the Nationalist Gov't of China have dealt with Mao and his followers. Very harshly, by the by. As to what London's plans are for a post-war China... Since there isn't a war yet, such thoughts would be considered unseemly, eh?

KiMaSa - Sadly, the Americans have seem to lost a good deal of interest in China lately. Very concerned about the P.I. but not China. And yes, the firepower currently in the Far East for the British Empire surely can't stop a concentrated effort by the Sino-Japanese. But they can make the Sino-Japanese forces pay very dearly given sufficent warning.

Porkman & Nathan Madien - Thanks for the clarification of things for all of us on the Chinese civil war. While part of me is glad the ChiComs have been dealt with by the Japanese (ah, and the Nationalist Chinese of course o) I'm truly not looking forward to having to fight a unified China and Imperial Japan if it comes to that.

 

[Nathan Madien]

While part of me is glad the ChiComs have been dealt with by the Japanese (ah, and the Nationalist Chinese of course o) I'm truly not looking forward to having to fight a unified China and Imperial Japan if it comes to that.

It can always be worse. The British could fight this instead.

 

[Falastur]

It can always be worse. The British could fight this instead.

...what have I just witnessed?

...did I just lose part of my soul?

...is it reversible?

 

[unmerged(28944)]

I'm with Falastur... Dear God in Heaven, what the hell was that?!?!? I think I might be mentally scarred for life... That is the most devious form of warfare ever envisioned! No one can stand against that...

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Thank God I'm hardened enough through Peti's ideas, Villalobosians and Werewolfvians lynchings and guessing my lady's wishes...

 

[Lord E]

The Japanese show their true face. I can see why the Empire wants to wait with this conflict. With the most of your forces occupied in Russia it will be very difficult to participate in yet another war at the moment. But on the other side these kinds of insults against the Empire can’t stand unpunished…

A lot of interesting developments around the world. Nice to see Italy sign the peace treaty and the Kaiser return to Germany. I only wonder what else the Japanese have planned…

 

[Vann the Red]

An update that starts glowingly and ends ominously. Given the engine, the conflict seems inevitable. Nice engineered "incident" there.

Vann

 

[Nathan Madien]

I'm with Falastur... Dear God in Heaven, what the hell was that?!?!? I think I might be mentally scarred for life... That is the most devious form of warfare ever envisioned! No one can stand against that...

Exactly! Even the mighty Paras are no match for wiggling pudding!

Someone at work sent me that video and I HAD to share it.

 

[unmerged(24320)]

Falastur: ...I also had this idea in my head that an American general was responsible.

actually, you had the right of it, including MacArthur ! ! MacArthur was braindead in thinking that the Philippines should take priority over China. The US Forces that were in the Philippines would have been put to much better use in China ! ! from a standpoint of Japan, neither China nor the Philippines were of any use - they had no Navy to transport resources to Japan... however, post-war China was much more important to US interests than the Philippines. think of it this way, no matter what happened to the Philippines during WW2, they would be free within ten years. but, what would the status of China be with the US military transitioned from the Philippines to China from 1944 (±) onwards: Democratic and free, or, enslaved under Mao ? ?

granted, we really don't know that answer, as the commies may have won anyway...


Porkman: RE: Falastur: ...concept that the Communists were pushed back to the north...: This sentence is entirely correct. .. The Nationalists were already beyond overstretched when they started their offensive.

which begs the question, "would the presence of substantial US Forces have made any difference ? ?"

many thanks for the history lesson ! !


Kurt_Steiner: ...and guessing my lady's wishes...

methinks that that last one would be sufficient...

 

[Ciryandor]

I'd answer on the Philippines part:

We'd probably see a Philippines leaning towards Communism along Maoist lines had the Americans prioritized China, if not a full-blown communist state. This is because large swathes of the country were held by socialist-leaning guerilla groups during their campaigns against the Japanese, not to mention that USAFFE-trained Filipinos were highly tolerant of their socialist brethren so long as they stayed out of each other's way; versus fighting a civil war like the Yugoslavs would have done. The elite's power bases were dismantled by that time, and the designed supplanting by the Japanese would have not held against the peasantry's control of the countryside. Furthermore, Americans in China during that time would have been a 1940s Vietnam-style quagmire; with the general population being resentful of their presence, given that the treatment of Nationalist troops during that time was generally worse than that of the Communists.

Think of a 1960s Cuba as the Philippines then, and it would have been a major threat to power projection by the Americans in the region; unless the Americans are willing to pour development for Formosa as their main staging area in East Asia.

 

[unmerged(24320)]

Ciryandor: I'd answer on the Philippines part: We'd probably see a Philippines leaning towards Communism along Maoist lines had the Americans prioritized China, if not a full-blown communist state.

and that, my friend, was hanging around in the back of my mind as i wrote my previous post. btw, "Communism along Maoist lines" really is the same as "a full-blown communist state" ! !

Ciryandor: ...This is because large swathes of the country were held by socialist-leaning guerrilla groups during their campaigns against the Japanese, not to mention that USAFFE-trained Filipinos were highly tolerant of their socialist brethren so long as they stayed out of each other's way

i was not aware of those specific guerrilla groups, but i am aware of the Moslem issues that the Philippines face(d)...

Ciryandor: ...Furthermore, Americans in China during that time would have been a 1940s Vietnam-style quagmire; with the general population being resentful of their presence, given that the treatment of Nationalist troops during that time was generally worse than that of the Communists.

this also crossed my mind, even though i was not aware of the treatment mentioned above. the end result may have hinged on the treatment/behavior of the American troops.

Ciryandor: ...Think of a 1960s Cuba as the Philippines then, and it would have been a major threat to power projection by the Americans in the region;

i lived through the "1960s Cuba" situation (yep, been in Florida that long,) but we really have no way of knowing the results of that hypothetical situation, with the US starting out as the "lawful owners" of the Philippines.

Ciryandor: ...unless the Americans are willing to pour development for Formosa as their main staging area in East Asia.

that need would be dependent upon the results of the China "campaign" aforementioned.

 

[Porkman]

Ciryandor: ...Furthermore, Americans in China during that time would have been a 1940s Vietnam-style quagmire; with the general population being resentful of their presence, given that the treatment of Nationalist troops during that time was generally worse than that of the Communists.

this also crossed my mind, even though i was not aware of the treatment mentioned above. the end result may have hinged on the treatment/behavior of the American troops.

Ciryandor: ...Think of a 1960s Cuba as the Philippines then, and it would have been a major threat to power projection by the Americans in the region;

that need would be dependent upon the results of the China "campaign" aforementioned.

The plan for American intervention in China was for US marines to seize one of the big cities on the coast, Guangzhou, and then operate in concert to push the Japanese back. This was scheduled for late 1945 early 1946. American marines actually did arrive in Beijing and Tianjin to accept the Japanese surrender and they held them for a few months against the occasional communist attack until Chinese divisions could be sea lifted in. People who read the credits on "The Pacific" may have noticed that Eugene Sledge's second book is called "China Marine" and its about this period when 40,000 us marines. They were resented, but mainly because they were comparitively wealthy in a country whose economy was starving andd crippled.

 

[Nathan Madien]

People who read the credits on "The Pacific" may have noticed that Eugene Sledge's second book is called "China Marine" and its about this period when 40,000 us marines. They were resented, but mainly because they were comparitively wealthy in a country whose economy was starving andd crippled.

I can see why it would send a wrong message.

 

[Ciryandor]

What the US could potentially do in the case of "ignoring" the Philippines would be to simply just leave them in the lurch in trying to defend them from the Socialists/Communists in the hinterlands; secure their military bases (we give you independence ASAP and throw you some spare goods, you grant us bases for 99 years w/out any way to throw us out), and then do their China campaign. The country doesn't really need much in the way of support IMO during that time. (Yes I do have issues with the idiots in government [who are now mostly on their death-beds or pushing daisies] around two decades ago who decided that kicking out the bases and the security blanket it provided was a good economic and security decision)

 

[Falastur]

Falastur: ...I also had this idea in my head that an American general was responsible.

actually, you had the right of it, including MacArthur ! !

Haha, well that wasn't exactly how I thought I had it remembered, but cool! I am an accidental genius! Thanks for the history lesson on the details, by the way.

Oh, and merry Christmas and a happy New Year to one and all in the thread.

 

[Rensslaer]

Draco,

Naturally, I am VERY pleased to see the Hohenzollern family restored to its rightful place in a constitutional monarchy of Germany! And glad to see Britain getting some help from Germany against the Soviets. How historical is that thing about Thuringia? And is there more purpose to it than consolidating war-thinned monarchic families into a centralized state?

Was there more to that Toyama Maru incident -- some secret cargo? Or was it as it appeared once the film was made available?

Great work! Always good to see this continuing after all these years.

Rensslaer