Food

[Fluffy_Fishy]

This has probably been suggested before but I would love to see some kind of food mechanic, perhaps based around a fertility and population, in accordance with the new Common Sense dlc. I doubt there is anything in current planning because the whole idea is likely to be over complex but thinking about it, it was hunger that drove the french revolution and the sweeping political changes of the late 18th century, food was also the driving force between the italian wars in the fifthteenth and sixteenth century. It would also add some meat (excuse the pun) to the blockade mechanic in some nations especially island ones with high populations, it would also add a certain nececity with some diplomatic relationships.

Roughly how I would see it working;
1) Food would be produced and consumed in each provence, some would have a net loss and some a net gain, working in accordance to the up and coming development mechanics.
2) When food is scarse, unrest rises, when it is plentiful it adds towards development points.
3) There would be a real need for agricultural provinces, and the possibility to starve out an empire, giving more tactical flavour to a nation at war.
4) Internationally there could be some kind of import/export slider, where there is a centred balance between exporting food for an income, centred for domestic food products only, where the nation is self seficient, or importing, where a nation spends money to support its food needs (almost a requirement for some of the large city state type nations with little land).
5) The price of import/export would depend on the amount of people buying/selling food within trade range to simulate supply and demand.

It could even be given a fun title like all the other dlc, such as the famous Marie Antoinette "Let them eat cake". I would like to hear other peoples thoughts to this, or how difficult it would be to impliment, I dont see it as too bad the way the game is seeminly going with the new DLC.

 

[Mailosz]

Well, I think that it would be too complex to implement it for paradox and also to understand how it works for players.

 

[AmbroStoics]

While I'm not sure about a system, food provinces should definately get some mechnic to increase their value. During the Napoleonic wars for example, untouched lands like the Austrian domains outside the empire made a killing on exporting foodstuffs to war torn Western Europe which helped the region develop greatly.

So maybe food provinces that are sieged should get -100% production for a year, which would increase the price of grain?

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

I don't see it as being that complex, I see it as working similar to the old trade goods mechanics but more simplified and localised, I would have thought most of the work would be involved in giving a fertility score to each province, but judging that they have just spent time doing similar to make development work, it is probably far more simple than modifying everything for Common sense.

I see it as a simple tool that you could potentially use to starve out your enemies, make huge gains in other peoples wars and expanding scorched earth somewhat, giving it some more sensible depth and reprocussions. I know they did move away from the supply demand because no one understood it, but people always undervalue how important food is throughout history and not properly incorporate it into things, if anyone is going to do it right, its going to be paradox.

This is why I suggested giving a slider to players, probably located in the economy tab. It gives a simple solution, giving a current price, then having a slider similar to the patriachal authority (where the middle has no value) but one you can move yourself to give a handle on how much food you can either buy in or sell, as I tried to explain earlier.

 

[LinusLinothorax]

I support every idea that increases realism and complexity, so +1

 

[Itchel]

Once you import potatos your food should skyrocket ;p

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

I genuinely don't see it as being something that is overly complex. I think there would be a challenge with balance than complexity. It would mean things like the major grain baskets would feel far more contested instead of just a dull 1-2 base tax province that they have been given up until now. I don't know about everyone else but I want more tactical depth. I want to be able to make the design choice whether to be some kind of city based thassalocracy importing food and maintaining supply lanes to support my empire or an agricultural powerhouse getting wealthy off the riches of the land, holding the powerful hungry nations at a ransom of the dinner plate.

 

[Krajzen]

I support every idea that increases realism and complexity, so +1

As much as I love realism and complexity you can't forget about accessability and gameplay and balance many games have fallen in the pit of being overly complicated and too ambitious. I am looking at you, master of orion III.

 

[Voldurak78]

I think they can just add a consumption and production amount for each province (with a bonus for grain and fish producting provinces), the food will be stocked and the amount of food will appear upward, and if you havn't enough food you will loose manpower and get more unrest. Winter, summer, spring and autumn will also affect the production and the consumption.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

I really like the consumption and production idea, but I don't think that the seasonal variation should be there though, the previous posters are already worrying about over complication and I think that it might take things a little too far. To my knowledge, traditionally food supplies were fairly stable, people knew and had practised for generations to keep a steady supply in storage and rationing themselves. I do however like the idea that it would affect manpower, where shortages could slow down manpower recovery, or a large surplus could give a bonus towards it. Thank you for your suggestions Voldurak.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

So maybe food provinces that are sieged should get -100% production for a year, which would increase the price of grain?

Sorry, I entirely forgot to respond to the message about this in my previous post. Yes that is exactly the kind of thing I would see as working, perhaps not straight away 100% though, maybe it could be linked to the new raiding mechanic.

 

[LinusLinothorax]

As much as I love realism and complexity you can't forget about accessability and gameplay and balance many games have fallen in the pit of being overly complicated and too ambitious. I am looking at you, master of orion III.

I doubt that the inclusion of a feature like food will implode EU's accesibilitiy and make it overcomplicated. The opposite is the case: Current state-building is overly simplified and arcade, and more realistic mechanics are badly needed. Not only food but also other features which played a big role in historical empire management (For example several religions/cultures per province).

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Thank you for your support. I agree almost entirely with you Linus, I do kind of see the religion as something that represents the majority religion in a province, as im sure a lot of people do and paradox meant it to be. I fquite like how some mods try to represent more of a mix of religions such as in M&T and I will be interested to see if someone actually does try and create a food type mechanic under the up and coming expansion, from the sound of the features it that kind of thing will become far more easy, but its probably something paradox need to do themselves to really work.

 

[Voldurak78]

If they add food they can also add a better system for plagues that will fit he food system

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

How would you see plagues working? Some kind of disease spread type thing, to simulate things like smallpox going over to the americas for example?

 

[Voldurak78]

I think the best will be a modifier in province that will spread by events for example you receive un event that warn that a disease has appeared in a province you will take a decison concerning your reaction to that (quarantina, invest in healing services...) and if your actions don't give results you will recieve an other events that will wanr that the plague has spread in the neighbouring province of the original one. And we can imagine vents like : traded food is contaminated that may cause the spread of the disease in other countries or in far lands of your territory. The modifier will affect manpower, food production, taxes and unrest.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Are you basically outlining how the black death works in VeF but on an expanded and slightly different way? I have to admit it would give more flavour than the current disease event chain. While I think those events are getting a bit stale now, the concept as a whole still works fairly well, and somewhat fits purpose. Bringing it back to topic, illnesses tended to increase food surpluses not decrease them, while I like the thought of having a more in depth system involving spreading of plagues and diseases, I dont see it as wholly relevent to the topic of food. Perhaps it could theoretically be in the same patch, about life in the time period but it opens it up too much for what I would like to discuss here. Thank you though.

 

[Voldurak78]

Yes it will fit very well the food mechanics for an expansion

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

I'm really glad this has popped up again. I wrote this before the Common Sense DLC and after playing a little bit of it I would love to see it in game. The problem I now face is basically if this idea was included then farmlands would be hugely hugely OP, they are already get the additional 2 building slots, personally I would have it swapped with grasslands, so that grasslands get +2 then farmlands get +1 and a big bonus to the food possibilities. I'm not sure why you would want to build buildings over all the lovely farmland, I think its a bit of an odd thing to do especially as some of the buildings are implied complexes like the Grand shipyards or the Bastions.

As an update I stand by what I have said previously, diverging into some of the bonuses, as I suspected the idea of food would now add on something really well to how development splits. There additional slot could be named Agriculture, based somewhat off the province type, so Farmlands and Coastal (from fishing) get the biggest bonuses, The calculation for consumption could be something like (Development-Agriculture)/4Agriculture I cant honestly say I'm too sure about how my import export idea might work though but I feel like it is needed, I would like to see a trickling bonus to development cost from importing food maybe -2% per year up to a maximum of -25% at full import + being able to support yourself with your own lands, but this should be fairly difficult to achieve the full bonus, either through cost or relying on food from a nation which might be hostile or at war. The penalties for not having enough food should be quite severe though, mostly through unrest +5 and army morale -20%, perhaps over time through a monthly tick rather than yearly as food stocks run out.

I feel like there is space to apply a building to it too, giving more option depth and feel to what to me feels more tactical but currently feeling a little bit stale. with the option to have a food related manufactory and a couple of farm buildings, like a fishery or roads, giving movement and better freedom to create or move food about. I would personally like to see a couple of bonuses to agricultural production during appropriate admin tech levels for land provinces and a similar diplo tech bonus for agriculture. I did have another point but it currently escapes me, I do hope it comes back though as it was a good one. All the same I would still love to see mechanics like this.

 

[Voldurak78]

We can also imagine that the more we build buildings in a province the less it will produce food