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Pyramid_Head

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Developers said they want to rework how food functions, mostly with food sharing between planets.
Problem:
Food have only single usage in Stellaris - to make POPs grow faster. Which means that in the end once you filled all planet tiles you will inevitably do the same thing - replace all food buildings with power plants or labs, keeping planetary food balance on minimum positive.
And it's a really underdeveloped part of the game. It takes upgraded planetary capital and one-two farms to fed entire planet, depending on size.
Ideas to change it:
1. Make Food affect more than growth.
Obvious stat is happiness. With excessive food resulting in more happiness on a given planet.
2. Make food be shared between planets.
Master of Orion II had this feature. When excessive food would be pooled to a single empire-wide storage, from where it could be used to feed other planets(for example without athmosphere or where farming is not allowed). That was possible until you had transport fleets to deliver this food. Transport acted as convoys in HOIIV - not present on the map but rather as a number. Blockades would stop off-world food supply.
3. Make food generate profits.
Also from Master of Orion II. When you had free transports and covered planetary needs, excessive food would be used as atrade good, generating profits. This way, food was very important resource, and Empires could thrive on agrarian trade. Same could be applied to Stellaris.
4. Trade synergy
Should interplanetary trade or trade edicts be implemented, that could synergize well with food. As excessive food could be either sold to other empires or used to fed yours, maybe depending on some policy.
5. Improvement of Trade Agreements
Sign an agreement and civilian AI controlled ships start coursing between empires, bringing mutual profits upon reaching destination. More sulprus food generates more abstract trade ships\freighters.
6. Make specialized planets possible
Make specialized world possible so we'll have agricultural worlds, factory or scientific worlds. Which in turn will add more strategic layers, so you can hit certain planets to starve enemy empire and protect your farm worlds to keep your empire fed. Supply lanes also could be integrated in some future privateer or piracy mechanics, with pirates raiding your trade routes. Also you can see things like this:
index.php
7. Tech synergy
Adding techs that will not only be endless +5% food or Hydroponic farms I II II IV V VI VII VIII etc. but add food-to-energy conversion from excessive food traded. Or maybe adding, for example 0.5 additional minerals per excessive food produed. Or adding other various bonuses.
8. Slaves.
Make slaves more important. Let them work on plantations, process them into food. Buy slaves to process them etc.
9. Food Strategic resources
Add variation of Betharian stones for Food output. Make additional edits for Alien pets(or slaves) produce food.

Anything to make food a important resource, insted of "build-farm-and-forget"
 
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Milten

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1. Make Food affect more than growth.
Obvious stat is happiness. With excessive food resulting in more happiness on a given planet.
Fair enough.
3. Make food generate profits.
Also from Master of Orion II. When you had free transports and covered planetary needs, excessive food would be used as atrade good, generating profits. This way, food was very important resource, and Empires could thrive on agrarian trade. Same could be applied to Stellaris.
Wait a second. You not just free your hands to create farm/mine/generator worlds with production bonus buildings working at full power, but actually expect to be paid for it?
 
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tinculin

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I don't understand why excess food should increase population growth.

Food shortages should produce higher population growths - look at the real world. Only massive famine should produce negative growth.

If anything, excess food should increase obesity and have a negative effect to happiness / health & arguably production values.
 
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Pyramid_Head

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Wait a second. You not just free your hands to create farm/mine/generator worlds with production bonus buildings working at full power, but actually expect to be paid for it?
not quite. For example:
- Earth produces 7 sulprus food produced,
- Mars is a mining colony with no athmosphere and farming places and need 3 food to sustein the population, plus 1 to grow more.
- Aplha Centauri and Pepe Republic have a trade agreement with you.
- 3 excessive food is converted via some formula into energy credits. If could be (Food pool-Food demand)/2*Kx where Kx=K1+K2+...Kn - different modifiers from edicts, policies, governments, ethos, traits, etc.
that will allow you to grow and make agricultural world viable. the problem with Master of Orion II is that I am not sure about food formula, pop growth could be constant there, I mean as long as food is positive pops won't grow faster(so growth bonuses were much much more imporant than we have in Stellaris), excessive food will be simply added to the pool and used for trade or other planet supply.
 
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Milten

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3 excessive food is converted via some formula into energy credits. If could be (Food pool-Food demand)/2*Kx where Kx=K1+K2+...Kn - different modifiers from edicts, policies, governments, ethos, traits, etc.
And if both you and Pepe have food surplus, you both will be getting energy credits?
 
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faljen_isus

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I don't understand why excess food should increase population growth.

Food shortages should produce higher population growths - look at the real world. Only massive famine should produce negative growth.

If anything, excess food should increase obesity and have a negative effect to happiness / health & arguably production values.

famine doesnt create growth, the fact that people have absolutely nothing else to do in camps where they starve and dont have basic contraception increases population growth
a simple case of corelation without causality
 
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Pyramid_Head

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If you have both established a trade agreement, then why not? Think of it not as a government deals but local entrepreneurs having some trade and excessive food released on a market.
 
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tinculin

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famine doesnt create growth, the fact that people have absolutely nothing else to do in camps where they starve and dont have basic contraception increases population growth
a simple case of corelation without causality

Ignoring your strawman argument (I specifically excluded famine), the most food abundant countries in the world have the lowest population growth.

Excess food does not equal pop growth, though they do have bigger issues with obesity & associated health issues.
 
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I_am_Nemo

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Ignoring your strawman argument (I specifically excluded famine), the most food abundant countries in the world have the lowest population growth.

Excess food does not equal pop growth, though they do have bigger issues with obesity & associated health issues.

The excess food = pop growth thing probably comes from civ, where it makes a certain sense - over civ timescales, food surplus is a necessary factor for both population growth and specialization. If not because it affects birthrate, then on account of migration.

It doesn't make sense in Stellaris timescales, and really doesn't make sense given the modern economies Stellaris starts out with, which can be assumed to have good standards of living, med care, etc.

What makes even less sense, though, is pops taking /longer/ to grow for every existing pop on the planet. If anything, population growth should speed up based on total population, unless reined in by external factors (food shortages, or cultural/political developments that push people away from reproducing).
 
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tinculin

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Perhaps 'food' as a resource would make more sense if it was renamed to represent infrastructure that provides 'quality of life' and more generically represents healthcare, infrastructure and services that we'd associate in keeping a population fit and health in both mind and body.

This could then tie directly in with happiness and would make sense to do so.
 
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Numar

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Yes, the current food system is simply boring. While your suggestions make sense, I wouldn't implement them as a standalone, but in combination with a trade/civilian ship between planets system. If that is even visible on the galaxy map, it wouldn't be so boring anymore (think of Sins of a Solar Empire).
 

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It wouldn't hurt my feelings to see food go away entirely. The main benefit being that the AI, both enemy empires and your own sectors, would not have to deal with it, which should make both more efficient. You put techs in that increase pop growth to replace the farm techs. It never made sense to have huge domed farm facilities on continental planets anyway. Those should be built on barren or other inhospitable planet types, except that would require a complete re-work of the habitability and colonization mechanics so that is probably best saved for a different discussion. Aside from that, the best suggestion I've seen is to make excess food affect happiness (and vice-a-versa). Of course the problem there is that it makes happiness producing government types inferior because food is so easy to get and of course, Paradox being Paradox, they don't want to make it too easy to have happy empires now do they. ;)
 
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I tried out a mod 2-3 weekd based on the planets from 40k universe. Really loved the consept there where you could set up agri worlds and food export and food imports building. Was a bit to OP the hive and forge worlds bonus. Fought the Unbidden with a 2000 value fleet of battleships and cruisers. Fleet was out of spacedock and had a 1,2k energy surplus 2,8k mineral surplus and 10 sectors was only taxed 25%.
 

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Perhaps 'food' as a resource would make more sense if it was renamed to represent infrastructure that provides 'quality of life' and more generically represents healthcare, infrastructure and services that we'd associate in keeping a population fit and health in both mind and body.

This could then tie directly in with happiness and would make sense to do so.

It already *kinda* does, right? That's why the Frontier Hospital provides food.

Just like how "Minerals" is sometimes construed to include general industrial capacity.
 

BlackUmbrellas

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I think you should be able to trade food between worlds, but it definitely shouldn't be an automatic "global" function (I'd rather you had to set up trade routes to shuttle resources between worlds- maybe even in general for all resources), and I disagree that you should be able to convert food into energy credits "in bulk" at all- it could be a trade option, maybe, or part of an Enclave, but otherwise it shouldn't just get converted.

(Also it's already mostly confirmed via twitter teasers that we're going to be able to "process" POP units into food)
 

Kayden_II

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1. Make Food affect more than growth.
Obvious stat is happiness. With excessive food resulting in more happiness on a given planet.

I have still a Problem with the Circumstance of "more Food" --> "more Happiness" --> "More Productivity", because fat POPs are (maybe) happier, but not more productive ...

There was in the Past a better Approach to rename - Food into "Consumer-Products" ...
"More Consumer-Products" --> "More Happiness" --> "More Productivity": Makes much more Sense ! ...
Nice Side-Effect: NO redundant Food-Production Anymore ! ...

And ...
Why not to make Food/"Consumer-Products" more important in the general Case, that POPs are DYING (regulary), because I have the Feeling, that the Colonies are to too fast - full of POPs ...
It is only important, that the Player hasn't a direct Influence, because It would makes "Purging" obsolete = Too much Exploiting-Potential.
 

JodelDiplom

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I have still a Problem with the Circumstance of "more Food" --> "more Happiness" --> "More Productivity", because fat POPs are (maybe) happier, but not more productive ...

There was in the Past a better Approach to rename - Food into "Consumer-Products" ...
"More Consumer-Products" --> "More Happiness" --> "More Productivity": Makes much more Sense ! ...
Nice Side-Effect: NO redundant Food-Production Anymore ! ...

And ...
Why not to make Food/"Consumer-Products" more important in the general Case, that POPs are DYING (regulary), because I have the Feeling, that the Colonies are to too fast - full of POPs ...
It is only important, that the Player hasn't a direct Influence, because It would makes "Purging" obsolete = Too much Exploiting-Potential.
Just think of "more food" not as "two bowls of oat meal instead of one" but as "high quality beef instead of something that tastes like chicken but definitely isn't"
 
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faljen_isus

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Ignoring your strawman argument (I specifically excluded famine), the most food abundant countries in the world have the lowest population growth.

Excess food does not equal pop growth, though they do have bigger issues with obesity & associated health issues.

excess food can improve pop growth because it can support more people brought to the world, the issue we face on our planet is that food isnt distributed on a "need basis" but on a "can pay basis", obesity (in 99% of cases) is a case of "i love to eat and want to eat, and hey, i can afford it" (i am personally in this 99%), and famine can be solved by just scooping up leftovers of the developed countries and feeding the poor (which will cause a completely new and exotic set of problems in the near future)

also to give you an explanation of excess food=pop growth
in my country we have a serious pop depletion problem (and are expected to lose 50% of our population by 2060) because people tend to have fewer children in order to have better chances of providing for them (food is one of the factors, a big one) because our salaries are crap, and prices are inflated etc
if food were to become more accessible (altho we do have enough of it, it just is expensive, and the food people mostly buy is tasteless crap imported from abroad where the expiration date has long since past) people would be more inclined to have more children and my countries pop situation would at least stabilize, if not even start to grow

so, good sir, i perfectly know what i am talking about and my arguments are valid and confirmed on an empirical basis, not theoretical, or simple hearsay from lands unknown or unvisited ;)