Food is now obsolete and should be removed from game

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Jzuken

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Something I thought about in my recent playthrough, is with the new update the food mechanic became flawed and obsolete.

First of all it is now very hard to manage, as you don't have any direct control over it's consumption and you only have a few limited options of increasing it's production.
With the tile system it was quite easy to establish food surplus or at least a slight deficit that wouldn't hurt the overall production on any planet, as you could easily calculate the amount of pops you would need to feed and the amount of farms you would need for that, and the population would just cap at the planet size and consume food at a flat rate. You can mange mineral consumption by disabling some jobs, you can manage energy credits consumption in the same way, but you can't really reduce food consumption other than by purging pops.
It is also hard to control food production, as pre-2.2 you could slap a hydroponic farm on any planet, habitat and ringworld and queue other buildings. Now you already have to do enough planetary micromanagement without food, and with food it just becomes harder, as you have to create agri-worlds, you have to balance food and housing needs if you don't build agri-worlds and farm districts aren't always available, so it becomes much harder that "two hydroponic farms will cover this planet" like it was before. You can have one maxed out civilian fabrication complex to cover all consumer goods consumption, but you would need 5-6 hydroponic farms to cover food needs of one planet.
With base resources like minerals or energy it is possible to cover their consumption by stations and then you can macro them with dyson spheres and matter extractors. With food the only option to macro it is a ringworld(!!!) segment. It's a joke that you would need a wonder of engineering just to turn it into Rusty Joe's farm.

Second, food mechanic is now obsolete.
Why? Because we have amenities now, that are better in every way. (and consumer goods by the way)
They increase or decrease happiness, the same as food. They are planet-specific and can't be stored, which is a much more sensible mechanic for something like actual food. They can be generated by different buildings and it is possible to cover amenities consumption on any planet without a lot of micromanagement.
It is also better from RP perspective. "It's 200 years into the future, and you need districts just to farm food? You just colonized a planet and made it into in agri-world??? YOU JUST CONSTRUCTED A RINGWORLD SEGMENT TO GET 50 FARMING DISTRICTS, YOU ABSOLUTE MADMAN!!!"
We can already use existing hydroponic farming to produce huge amounts of food in restricted space, I'd guess in 200 years food would be the least of our concerns, and it certainly shouldn't take a ringworld segment to feed an empire and a lot of time to micromanage it - you don't see countries trying to micromanage their food production and it doesn't take 1/3 of their economy. You also don't see food being stockpiled for years or any but the poorest countries having food shortage - and the ones that have food shortage also lack amenities. It is just a flat resource that will get you a huge penalty if you let it run into negative values and has one decision and one policy that uses it, and three other policies for hive minds.

Food mechanic doesn't contribute to gameplay now. It is hard to manage and doesn't scale well, it is already made obsolete by amenities and consumer goods that work much better and it doesn't fit with the game now, so I think it would be for the better if it just gets removed now.
 

Secret Master

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It is also hard to control food production, as pre-2.2 you could slap a hydroponic farm on any planet, habitat and ringworld and queue other buildings.

Umm, you can still put hydroponic farms on planets now. They go in building slots. If for some weird reason you lack enough farming districts on your worlds, just use a few building slots.

Or you could just buy food.

Now you already have to do enough planetary micromanagement without food, and with food it just becomes harder, as you have to create agri-worlds, you have to balance food and housing needs if you don't build agri-worlds and farm districts aren't always available, so it becomes much harder that "two hydroponic farms will cover this planet" like it was before.

Wait a minute. So you are complaining that food production matters more now, instead of being a no-brainer like it was before?

And why bother with agri-worlds? Agriculture is so efficient, that I almost never have any agri-worlds. The last time I did, it was a lush planet with titanic life. And then I bulldozed the farms in favor of mines.

It is also better from RP perspective. "It's 200 years into the future, and you need districts just to farm food? You just colonized a planet and made it into in agri-world??? YOU JUST CONSTRUCTED A RINGWORLD SEGMENT TO GET 50 FARMING DISTRICTS, YOU ABSOLUTE MADMAN!!!"
We can already use existing hydroponic farming to produce huge amounts of food in restricted space, I'd guess in 200 years food would be the least of our concerns, and it certainly shouldn't take a ringworld segment to feed an empire and a lot of time to micromanage it - you don't see countries trying to micromanage their food production and it doesn't take 1/3 of their economy.

Now, this is the only part I agree with. It's a bit silly that more than 3% of your population is involve in agriculture. In previous versions of the game, I just RPed it as farming included harvesting biomass for all kinds of uses (medicine, building materials, and so on) and not just food. But now we have amenities, and that covers all that stuff.
 

Ryika

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I think there is some merit in the claim that food lacks a concise role right now, but I'd much rather that issue was addressed by refocusing the role of food than by getting rid of it as a resource. Food production and transport is such a major part of an empire that it would feel wrong to me if we were dealing with amenities and consumer goods, but didn't have any representation of agriculture in the game.
 

MightyFox

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I have little to no problems managing food. If anything, food tiles are too productive, and need to be nerfed. I almost never have to build food buildings on my planets and stations, and many of my planets can feed themselves with only 2 or 3 tiles.

Where it CAN become an issue is with habitats, as they can't produce nearly as much food as planets can, and will need a surplus to survive, but I still don't have a problem, even then.

As a resource, I must strongly disagree that it's obsolete. For starters, it factors into actually being a different playstyle, since robotic empires don't need food, and don't use it. If all came down to amenities, all empires would just start playing even more the same than they do now. It also factors into the market, and can be a quick source of income when everyone else is producing energy and minerals. I feel it should actually have more uses, such as a 'gluttonous' trait, that increases food consumption by 15%, and perhaps blight events that wipe out crops for a whole year, forcing you to rely on reserves.
 

FriendlyEntropy

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And why bother with agri-worlds? Agriculture is so efficient, that I almost never have any agri-worlds. The last time I did, it was a lush planet with titanic life. And then I bulldozed the farms in favor of mines.

So you never run into a situation where a planet has only City and Agriculture districts? Or do you make a lot of Urban worlds?
 

powerofvoid

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Now, this is the only part I agree with. It's a bit silly that more than 3% of your population is involve in agriculture. In previous versions of the game, I just RPed it as farming included harvesting biomass for all kinds of uses (medicine, building materials, and so on) and not just food. But now we have amenities, and that covers all that stuff.
It doesn't seem that weird:

cteemploymentagrelated2017_450px.png


About 4.4% of the US population is involved in producing food, and 6.4% in serving it. The 6.4% might be amenities, but the 4.4% definitely aren't.
 

Adantigus

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It does feel out of place next to the other resources. Energy and the somehow even more generic "minerals" will always be the foundation of the economy, the basic resources out of which everything else is made, for as long as our civilization is corporeal. But food production has been a rapidly shrinking sector for decades, and that trend will only continue as the field is increasingly automated and more advanced genetic technologies are developed. Even if we consider "food" in Stellaris to include various other forms of bio-matter, it's really hard to imagine a futuristic civilization where that stuff is even 1/100 as important as energy and minerals.
 

Secret Master

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So you never run into a situation where a planet has only City and Agriculture districts? Or do you make a lot of Urban worlds?

No.

I've seen some buggy planets with just mining districts, but not just agriculture.

It doesn't seem that weird:

cteemploymentagrelated2017_450px.png


About 4.4% of the US population is involved in producing food, and 6.4% in serving it. The 6.4% might be amenities, but the 4.4% definitely aren't.

Yeah, in a country with 21st level of technology.

Meanwhile, in my FTL civilization, I might have 10-15% of my labor on food. It's even more if I run nutritional plenitude, especially in the early game. The comparison is even worse if you compare the agriculture sector of the United States of today with the starting planet of a civilization. In Stellaris, these technologically advanced people are apparently morons.

2019_01_23_1.png


That's 6 out of 24 POPs on agriculture. 25% of the population. That's roughly the same percentage of people working in agriculture in the United States in 1920. o_O

NRX91qg.jpg
 

Ryika

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That's 6 out of 24 POPs on agriculture. 25% of the population. That's roughly the same percentage of people working in agriculture in the United States in 1920. o_O
But pops aren't proportional representations of your actual overall population, they're just a semi-arbitrary gameplay unit that's used for the pop mechanics.

The pop mechanics itself ignores many job fields that likely still exist in futuristic empires - doctors, educators, nurses and consultants of all kinds... to name a few - and focuses only on those that are relevant to the economics of Stellaris. And even within existing jobs it's likely that they're not designed to be understood as directly proportional representations.
 

kakatua

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But pops aren't proportional representations of your actual overall population, they're just a semi-arbitrary gameplay unit that's used for the pop mechanics.

The pop mechanics itself ignores many job fields that likely still exist in futuristic empires - doctors, educators, nurses and consultants of all kinds... to name a few - and focuses only on those that are relevant to the economics of Stellaris. And even within existing jobs it's likely that they're not designed to be understood as directly proportional representations.

If everything is abstract, anything is plausible.
 

powerofvoid

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Meanwhile, in my FTL civilization, I might have 10-15% of my labor on food. It's even more if I run nutritional plenitude, especially in the early game. The comparison is even worse if you compare the agriculture sector of the United States of today with the starting planet of a civilization. In Stellaris, these technologically advanced people are apparently morons.
I got my genome tested for a known cancer risk a couple years back because one of my moms tested positive for it a few years before that after she got cancer, but genome mapping isn't a starting tech for space empires in 2200.
 

Lady Lacroix

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Personally I could take or leave food. I will say though, it seems strange to me that food distribution has its own policies rather than being tied to living conditions. Species should simply have access to more or less food based on their living standards.

Plus there's every incentive to play on nutritional plentitude anyway so its not much of a choice given how much of a no-brainer it is.
 

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I got my genome tested for a known cancer risk a couple years back because one of my moms tested positive for it a few years before that after she got cancer, but genome mapping isn't a starting tech for space empires in 2200.

So, I'm right?

Their agriculture and medical technology is behind ours. Hell, there are plenty of planets in Stellaris that don't even have medical personnel... since those jobs generally only come with the gene clinic.

But pops aren't proportional representations of your actual overall population, they're just a semi-arbitrary gameplay unit that's used for the pop mechanics.

It is a proportional representation of the labor force, though.

I don't know how many Blorg are in a POP. But I do know that 6 of 24 POPs is 25% of the labor force in agriculture.

You could argue that there are other jobs rolled up into farming, but given the diversification of jobs in 2.2.4, it's a little less plausible than it was to do that pre-2.2. Farming can't include be any of the following jobs in Stellaris:

College professors
Doctors, nurses, medical techs
Soldiers
Rulers of any kind
Factory workers
Workers in chemical plants
Entertainers, whether they are movie stars, video game designers, or prostitutes
Clergy of any kind
Law enforcement
Professional Psychics, whether on TV or for real
Miners
Energy sector employees
Criminals
Clerks of any kind

And a whole list of others I'm probably forgetting
 
Last edited:

Lady Lacroix

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So, I'm right?

Their agriculture and medical technology is behind ours. Hell, there are plenty of planets in Stellaris that don't even have medical personnel... since those jobs generally only come with the gene clinic.
Why don't you already need fusion power as a prerequisite for FTL travel in the first place? How are these technologies sustaining themselves on traditional fission reactors?
 

powerofvoid

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Why don't you already need fusion power as a prerequisite for FTL travel in the first place? How are these technologies sustaining themselves on traditional fission reactors?
FTL is like magic: outside of a few known tricks, it works however the setting needs it to work, because we don't have any basis for it in reality.

That being said, if you are talking hard sci-fi space travel, the problem isn't powering your ship's equipment, it's having enough stuff to throw out the butt-end of the ship to make it start and stop, you should be asking how they get ships across a solar system in a mere month or two with chemical or ion thrusters.
 

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Why don't you already need fusion power as a prerequisite for FTL travel in the first place? How are these technologies sustaining themselves on traditional fission reactors?

You have tons of Uranium on your home world in Stellaris and easier access to it? I dunno.

Maybe Fission power is many times more efficient in the 23rd Century. Or maybe the reactors on your ship operate like this:

dampfschifffahrt-heizer-im-kesselraum-eines-ozeandampfers-picture-id549518427


(It would be silly scientifically, but it would be thematically appropriate for some sci-fi settings. I think the ships in the Imperium of Man are sometimes operated in this way.)
 

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It would be nice if food was used as a component of consumer goods. 6 food 6 minerals to produce 12 consumer good etc. Or make it planet based with trades routes to transport over the empire so you can blockade and starve out entire planets regardsless of 'reserve' unless reserve amounts were also planet based.