Food for thought: Ammortality

[Amor_Fati]

We've near a major turning point in human history: Our medicine, genetic engineering and cyborg engineering are so advanced that we can actually change from "healing diseases" to "improving the human being". I know, I know, there are LOTS of bioethics dicussion around this topic, but let me sidestep them for a moment.

Anyway, once a race have advanced enough in these fields (again, if bioethics allows it), a species can achieve something akin to Ammortality. Please note that this is NOT Immortality - a human being could surely die if someone put a bullet (or shoots a laser gun) in his head, or by an accident, or by a superbacteria. But it means that "natural causes" are very unlikely to kill us with the amount of artificial organs (either mechanical or organic), turning our own cells into stem cells again, and general medical care. If we had that kind of Ammortality, living for 300, 500 years or more could be the norm (like if you research the lifespan-extending techs in Stellaris), unless someone had a very unfortunate event.

How would be such a society? Would the general costs associated with it would foment a divide between the amortal 1% and the "short-lived" 99%? Why would someone who can live pratically forever expose itself to the risks of exploring space (I heard traveling in spacecraft is quite dangerous)? How it would change our view of death if we could keep eluding it for (almost endless) centuries? How the amortal would relate with the "common humans"? What if you consistently outlived everyone you loved and cared for? How the society would evolve with the progressive increase of lifespan (like the one provided by each lifespan-extending tech in Stellaris)?

Please lets try to avoid the bioethics debate, as it would probably derail this thread when ppl firmly stand for their favorite sides.

 

[Rory1237]

I imagine it highly depends on how widespread it became. If it was available for a select "1%", I could see such a group ruling as a sort of 'demigod oligarchy' with each oligarch having plenty of time to develop power-bases, wealth and knowledge. Perhaps they would often butt heads with their vast power bases and vie for control. Sort of late Roman republic on steroids, or the Sith Empire from SWTOR.
If it is available to all, I could see cultural 'advances' slowing greatly, with each long lived generation carrying their generations values for much longer, while such a society may grow in general intelligence with perhaps fifty to a hundred years spent in education; however, it may instead be a drawn out version of the lives we already live.

 

[EvilTom]

There was a recent BBC Radio 4 Documentary on this exact things... it's a shame I can't remember what it was called, otherwise I would post you a link here.

Also have you watched the film In-Time? That's a pretty awesome concept which is similar to what you're saying, but except time is now a currency and the rich live for endless times whilst the poor struggle to live a few years beyond their expiration date.

 

[Hironymus]

The most interesting aspect about this is as following:
With our ever increasing speed in technological advance in mind. If you live to see the first generation of technologies which are able to extend your life for... lets say 100 years, you will also probably live to see a improved version of that technology which can extend your live for maybe 350 years. And after that you might even live to see the technology to extend your live for a thousand years.

So you probably only have to live long enough to get into the first generation of those with an artificial extended lifespan to archive ammortality.

 

[Yenzen]

As long as we don't become immortal and we can slow down the aging process as well, it'll trickle down.

Now, bear with me "no, the rich will want to exploit the poor and keep it for themselves" people. If those two conditions were met, it would mean that people could be productive for longer, meaning less money having to be paid to people's pensions, and less money spent on health problems for the government.

 

[Amor_Fati]

There was a recent BBC Radio 4 Documentary on this exact things... it's a shame I can't remember what it was called, otherwise I would post you a link here.

Also have you watched the film In-Time? That's a pretty awesome concept which is similar to what you're saying, but except time is now a currency and the rich live for endless times whilst the poor struggle to live a few years beyond their expiration date.

This film was a fantastic idea poorly done. It had so much promise... so much promise...

 

[Alucardex]

We've near a major turning point in human history: Our medicine, genetic engineering and cyborg engineering are so advanced that we can actually change from "healing diseases" to "improving the human being". I know, I know, there are LOTS of bioethics dicussion around this topic, but let me sidestep them for a moment.

Anyway, once a race have advanced enough in these fields (again, if bioethics allows it), a species can achieve something akin to Ammortality. Please note that this is NOT Immortality - a human being could surely die if someone put a bullet (or shoots a laser gun) in his head, or by an accident, or by a superbacteria. But it means that "natural causes" are very unlikely to kill us with the amount of artificial organs (either mechanical or organic), turning our own cells into stem cells again, and general medical care. If we had that kind of Ammortality, living for 300, 500 years or more could be the norm (like if you research the lifespan-extending techs in Stellaris), unless someone had a very unfortunate event.

How would be such a society? Would the general costs associated with it would foment a divide between the amortal 1% and the "short-lived" 99%? Why would someone who can live pratically forever expose itself to the risks of exploring space (I heard traveling in spacecraft is quite dangerous)? How it would change our view of death if we could keep eluding it for (almost endless) centuries? How the amortal would relate with the "common humans"? What if you consistently outlived everyone you loved and cared for? How the society would evolve with the progressive increase of lifespan (like the one provided by each lifespan-extending tech in Stellaris)?

Please lets try to avoid the bioethics debate, as it would probably derail this thread when ppl firmly stand for their favorite sides.

Really interesting topic. To be honest I have no idea how such a society might work as it is so alien to our current way of life.

There is one thing I would speculate on happening:
Birthrates among the ammortal part of society will probably plummet.

 

[sbytheway]

I imagine it highly depends on how widespread it became. If it was available for a select "1%", I could see such a group ruling as a sort of 'demigod oligarchy' with each oligarch having plenty of time to develop power-bases, wealth and knowledge. Perhaps they would often butt heads with their vast power bases and vie for control. Sort of late Roman republic on steroids, or the Sith Empire from SWTOR.
If it is available to all, I could see cultural 'advances' slowing greatly, with each long lived generation carrying their generations values for much longer, while such a society may grow in general intelligence with perhaps fifty to a hundred years spent in education; however, it may instead be a drawn out version of the lives we already live.

I think the natural extrapolation of this 1% idea is that globally the western middle classes are part of the 1%
So one might imagine that the oligarchy is stocked with shadowy billionaires who aren't anything like you whereas in fact this global oligarchy would include lots of "nice" western academics and middle management.(!) To evidence this I point out that if you own a house in London you're almost certainly one of the 1% wealthiest people in the world.
With global inequality as it currently is, you and your parents would probably be part of that evil privileged oligarchy!

 

[Milten]

So you probably only have to live long enough to get into the first generation of those with an artificial extended lifespan to archive ammortality.

You assume that if you are on yours 150s 350 years prolongation technology will give you exactly that.

 

[Bentusi16]

I would suggest looking into the background story for "StarSiege".

 

[Edopardo]

People tend to forget that brains are an actual physical organ with limitations. You can hardly store memories and know-how and experiences worth several lifetimes without significantly altering it.

 

[Rory1237]

I think the natural extrapolation of this 1% idea is that globally the western middle classes are part of the 1%
So one might imagine that the oligarchy is stocked with shadowy billionaires who aren't anything like you whereas in fact this global oligarchy would include lots of "nice" western academics and middle management.(!) To evidence this I point out that if you own a house in London you're almost certainly one of the 1% wealthiest people in the world.
With global inequality as it currently is, you and your parents would probably be part of that evil privileged oligarchy!

Naturally, not all of the 1% would be an 'evil privileged oligarchy', but a select few would use their significant life spans to develop their power bases, political careers, etc. Furthermore, such a system need not necessarily be 'evil', but the long living few would likely be those who gravitate towards powerful positions. However, such a system may also cause resentment among the short lived peoples, and we may see movements similar to the numerous parties claiming to defend workers rights, but instead defending the short lived, demanding more power. Of course this is all my own speculation.

 

[Amor_Fati]

People tend to forget that brains are an actual physical organ with limitations. You can hardly store memories and know-how and experiences worth several lifetimes without significantly altering it.

Who said we cannot significantly alter it, either by bio-engineering or by some sort of cyborg data upload?

Naturally, not all of the 1% would be an 'evil privileged oligarchy', but a select few would use their significant life spans to develop their power bases, political careers, etc. Furthermore, such a system need not necessarily be 'evil', but the long living few would likely be those who gravitate towards powerful positions. However, such a system may also cause resentment among the short lived peoples, and we may see movements similar to the numerous parties claiming to defend workers rights, but instead defending the short lived, demanding more power. Of course this is all my own speculation.

People seem to forget that 1% of 7 billion are 70 million. And I'd bet that (Even taking China and India in the account), probably some 70% of that 70 million are in the EU, US, Canada, Japan and Australia.

 

[Milten]

Naturally, not all of the 1% would be an 'evil privileged oligarchy', but a select few would use their significant life spans to develop their power bases, political careers, etc. Furthermore, such a system need not necessarily be 'evil', but the long living few would likely be those who gravitate towards powerful positions. However, such a system may also cause resentment among the short lived peoples, and we may see movements similar to the numerous parties claiming to defend workers rights, but instead defending the short lived, demanding more power. Of course this is all my own speculation.

Yeah, I can imagine the uproar. Minimum wage is nothing compared to immortality.
And if you start to make such technology more available you'll instantly hit overpopulation wall.

 

[sbytheway]

Naturally, not all of the 1% would be an 'evil privileged oligarchy', but a select few would use their significant life spans to develop their power bases, political careers, etc. Furthermore, such a system need not necessarily be 'evil', but the long living few would likely be those who gravitate towards powerful positions. However, such a system may also cause resentment among the short lived peoples, and we may see movements similar to the numerous parties claiming to defend workers rights, but instead defending the short lived, demanding more power. Of course this is all my own speculation.

I mean yeah evil is a loaded term, but oligarchies tend to be self serving and insular and over the long run are rarely a good way of governing for the benefit of anyone outside the ruling clique + their connections. To imagine a system that would produce a perpetually benevolent oligarchy is somewhat fantastical.
I stress the western middle classes thing because its something I see progressive (especially white, middle class, highly educated ) people here in the UK forget a lot; to rail against the power the 1% have while not realising that we're actually part of that, and I'm suspicious that if they realise they were calling for their own power to be reduced then they'd suddenly be a lot less loud about the 1%...

It's about narrative. It's well and good to talk about immortality for a clique of 1%ers leading to an oligarchic dystopia with the possibility of generating a nice people vs the power story. I just think realistically that most people on these forums would end up vs. the people, whereas most people tend to want to see themselves as "the people"

I don't think I'm explaining anything very well tbh, I'm mostly here to distract myself from finishing my dissertation

 

[Alucardex]

One thing I'm wondering about is how the human brain would cope with this.
Now I honestly don't have a lot of knowledge about this subject matter but ultimately the brain does have a limit of how much information it can store right?
So would an ammortal person reach a point where they would completely forget their childhood? Or where they have learned too many skills and start forgetting some of them?
I mean unless we also develop a way to store memory this might become a bit of a problem.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

Have you read Altered Carbon? Food for thought.

 

[Edopardo]

Who said we cannot significantly alter it, either by bio-engineering or by some sort of cyborg data upload?

Perhaps, but that would require perfect understanding of how a brain works, how it stores memories and abilities, how thought processes work, and it would require us to be perfectly able to manipulate these things. That's a much more complicated matter than biological immortality, and would have much deeper consequences than just very long lifespans (you could simply imprint an ability or a memory into a random person, or implant the fake memories of a life that is millenia long in a newborn!)

 

[barny]

Aren't there even techs in the game, that increase life spans (for the leaders)? And no, I don't mean the traits during the race customization.

 

[Ezumiyr]

I think that the problem is the the preservation of the mind. I don't know if the brain can be preserved from ageing, and even if a solution is found to avoid dementia, the human memory is not made for such long lifespans. And you can't just replace the brain like you can replace a heart.

It would require either some kind of augmentation (but would such people be still humans ?) or mind transfer (probably into computers, maybe organic ones).
Such technologies look almost as unlikely as FTL travel to me. The human mind works in way that is inconpatible with ammortality - ammortal beings would either be people with no birth and death who would live many lifes during their life, or hypermnemonic machine-like creatures.

Looks dystopian to me. In the first case, the world would be full of people who knows that they will live in a perpetual anxiety of forgetting their past life (they would be strangers to their own life), in the second case, they would belong to a transhumanist race and it's hard to imagine what their life would be like.
It's hard to avoid the bioethics part of the subject, since the feasability of an ammortal society is directly linked to it. Bioethics is not just saying "it's bad" or "it's good". It's also about long-term viability and social, psychological viability. For example, there are people who are born without the ability to feel pain. They generally don't live long. People born without the ability to die looks rather similar to me. Maybe there would be a need of a "first death" then a "resurrection" just to experience what it is, but it would probably be a rather traumatic event.