Food as resource?

[Ithron]

Rules do not forbid to have bonuses system for having excess food. As long as there is no malus and starvation involved, having +10% (or whatever) increase in production and morale is not forbidden. Plus, even if such bonuses are for some bizzare reason "illegal" as well, then let the food at least be a trade resource which is produced in all countries and for which countries could gain other resourses.

 

[Sectorknight21]

What is useless? Occupation policies? I like them.

I agree that rules must be abided by, but PI isn't very strict with them outside of HOI universe (and even in HOI games sometimes they take liberties with them...).

No, the whole directly simulating famines or direct terror bombing.

 

[Cybvep]

No, the whole directly simulating famines or direct terror bombing.

I disagree. Playing e.g. a game based in the antiquity or the middle ages without famine is just funny. And how can one "starve" UK without food as a resource?

Rules do not forbid to have bonuses system for having excess food. As long as there is no malus and starvation involved, having +10% (or whatever) increase in production and morale is not forbidden.

That could work

 

[Ithron]

No, the whole directly simulating famines or direct terror bombing.

..Because people dont go to war to just have some fun with loud guns? Since WW1 the physical extermination of the enemy has been far more important then in previous conflicts and total warfare became much more "popular". And thus targeting civilian population became more "fair game". Its tragic and cruel, yes, but thats the way it was, plus, it did have military and economical influence (which currently is non-existant in hoi). By having such extra-"chessboard" attitude there's almost no way to include "the rest of the society" in Hoi games because as soon as they are in, the effects of warfare somehow should influence them too, even if as minimal as rationing (which should be quite ok with paradox).

P.S. maybe a list of aspects and factors of how society influences the progress of war and how war influences the society should be made and given to Paradox to take out all "unacceptables", then the discussion of food, pops, etc would be far more constructive.

 

[CyBSKhan]

MP are not civilians. They are men who's trained in the army.

I thought MP represented able-bodied civilians you could enroll in your army ? Hence the "tax" they pay in AoD when they're not used.

 

[Fulmen]

I agree that rules must be abided by, but PI isn't very strict with them outside of HOI universe (and even in HOI games sometimes they take liberty of ignoring them, although it's rarely explicitly mentioned...).

Indeed. Famines (and they're called that) are in Crusader Kings for example. Not sure if in EU3 as well.

I thought MP represented able-bodied civilians you could enroll in your army ? Hence the "tax" they pay in AoD when they're not used.

That is correct.

Also one must note that it's pretty obvious what the MP growth reduction in the Soviet Great Purge event for example means: it means all the mass-executions, sending people to gulags etc.

Famines could be simulated by reduction of MP growth among other things, and at least some of them could be triggered by events.

 

[Easy1]

I have no idea why the word "food" is so sensitive on the HOI-forum. It's like the whole forum is trying to forget history.

Anyways, no one here are saying they want famines and terror bombing represented. It's about the strategic effect "the will to fight" has on the population. With little food, or after sustained bombing this "will to fight" will probably fall. The decreased "will to fight" after strategic bombing (terror bombing) is actually represented through dissent in HOI3.

A population will not fight far all eternity, to the last man, no matter how many people have died on the battlefield and no matter how many nuclear bombs have fallen on your population. But well, having it this way is the perception of political correct warfare in HOI.

Again, no one is saying we should represent holodomor, death marches or any such slaying of a civilian population. These kinds of slaying have never been a military strategy anyways

MP are not civilians. They are men who's trained in the army.

Manpower is trained soldiers you say? Then how come factories and convoys need manpower? Are we having trained soldiers as factory workers and civilian sailors in HOI then? What about the militia soldiers, what is their position before the 30 days it takes to "train" them?

 

[Vaximillian]

Manpower is trained soldiers you say? Then how come factories and convoys need manpower? Are we having trained soldiers as factory workers and civilian sailors in HOI then? What about the militia soldiers, what is their position before the 30 days it takes to "train" them?

Convoys aren't civilian. Factories - yes, soldiers are often made to work.
Militia? They're being organized.

 

[Ithron]

With little food, or after sustained bombing this "will to fight" will probably fall.

associating food with only dissent is indeed another good way to do this. Together with having bonuses for having excess food (read: for having more then the level of survival, which for political reasons never is crossed) it would be "politically acceptable" and better then having nothing at all.

 

[Ithron]

Convoys aren't civilian. Factories - yes, soldiers are often made to work.
Militia? They're being organized.

I think having militarized transport ships was not the usual practica at all.
In factories, up to half of workforce in some countries were women. Add men that were not mobilized because of their expertise and yet unmobilized men, because states, with rare exceptions, couldnt mobilize and keep mobilized all the available manpower, and the percentage of how many soldiers might have worked in factories drops fast.

 

[Easy1]

Convoys aren't civilian. Factories - yes, soldiers are often made to work.
Militia? They're being organized.

Saying soldiers work on factories is just plain stupid. Yes convois are military, during war at least. But what is the manpower? What is your manpower pool really composed of if it used for sailors on convoys, and these convoys is transporting raw materials during peace time? You don't organize soldiers into militia divisions, you organize the civilian population. A civilian population otherwise unfit for war and with poor if any military training. This is common sense.

Trying to marginalize these realities of warfare is of course kind of disrespectful to a lot of people, especially to the civilian victims. I'm talking about the civilians you claim are rightfully victims because they are "soldiers", although we all know they are really civilians

 

[bestmajor]

Saying soldiers work on factories is just plain stupid.

no, it isnt. at least in germany there was a constant struggle between the OKH and companies like Rheinmetall or Krupp to get the mechanics. those specialists were needed for both - tank divisions (for maintainance) or constructing new tanks.

With little food, or after sustained bombing this "will to fight" will probably fall.

depends IMO. in germany all those terror bombings caused simply stress for the population. the soldiers were not affected as they were in the field anyway. for the civilian population this stress made them unable for eg a rise up against the NS policy - now if a soldier in the field gets a letter from his family telling him how badly eg their house was affected, this could also have the opposit effect on (soldiers) morale.

 

[Cybvep]

Individual reactions vary, but it's safe to assume that an army lacking food will be at a big disadvantage when compared with an army with enough food. It's also safe to assume that the longer the war, the more tiresome it gets for the soldiers - war exhaustion effect is currently non-existent in vanilla HOI3. Germany feared WWI replay for a reason.

Instead of obliterating IC capacity, strategic bombers could increase war exhaustion in addition to standard NU hits. IC, on the other hand, should get harder to destroy the lower it is in relation to maximum value - strategic bombing campaigns were very intensive both in Germany and Japan, but they didn't destroy industrial potential of those countries, only hampered them.

For me, terror bombing is abstracted in form of NU hits, but food resource would still be very beneficial for gameplay.

 

[Easy1]

no, it isnt. at least in germany there was a constant struggle between the OKH and companies like Rheinmetall or Krupp to get the mechanics. those specialists were needed for both - tank divisions (for maintainance) or constructing new tanks.

Like the conflict between the armed forces and civilian hospitals of having medical personnel. An armed force need all sorts of proficiency, that still doesn't mean the whole society is potential soldiers. Dead factory workers that produced consumer goods for instance have never been counted as fallen soldiers. Even though the factory it self may be a military target, the factory workers are civilians. Bombing factories producing "supplies" or "consumer goods" in HOI terms today is a war crime. Why?

depends IMO. in germany all those terror bombings caused simply stress for the population. the soldiers were not affected as they were in the field anyway. for the civilian population this stress made them unable for eg a rise up against the NS policy - now if a soldier in the field gets a letter from his family telling him how badly eg their house was affected, this could also have the opposit effect on (soldiers) morale.

I approve your arguments. A social system is unpredictable, but saying the that the will to fight is likely to fall rather than raise is quite adequate I think. Just look at Germany during WW1.

Arthur Harris said that Germany was not bombed enough during WW2, therefore he had failed at his mission. I'm sure too that the fighting morale amongst Germans would have fallen some after four nuclear attacks

 

[Fulmen]

Individual reactions vary, but it's safe to assume that an army lacking food will be at a big disadvantage when compared with an army with enough food.

Hehe, ever heard of the sausage war?

 

[Porkman]

Arthur Harris said that Germany was not bombed enough during WW2, therefore he had failed at his mission. I'm sure too that the fighting morale amongst Germans would have fallen some after four nuclear attacks

I wonder if anyone has ever noticed that the time it takes a country to surrender has been directly proportional to how much they get bombed.

WW1 central powers were barely bombed - 4 years

Germany in WW2 - 6 years

Japan in WW2 - 8 years (from the start of the war in China)

Korea - 2 years.... Never surrendered

Vietnam - 10 years.... Never surrendered

Afghanistan - 9 years.... Hasn't surrendered

Bombing stuff will destroy the apparatus of an organized government, but there's a clearly a point of diminishing returns when it comes to destroying the will to fight.

 

[unmerged(52751)]

I wonder if anyone has ever noticed that the time it takes a country to surrender has been directly proportional to how much they get bombed.


Bombing stuff will destroy the apparatus of an organized government, but there's a clearly a point of diminishing returns when it comes to destroying the will to fight.

That's a pretty specious argument! As Gen. LeMay said about Vietnam, we were clearly bombing the wrong things! However, this is not the place to debate the effectiveness of strategic bombing on civilian morale.

The game already uses civilians as cannon fodder. It's called the Volksturm Doctrine in the German land doctrine research tree. These aren't soldiers, they are Hitlerjugend and old men with a panzerfaust or two sent to fanatical deaths against veteran US and Russian infantry and tanks. I recommend the film "Die Bruecke!"

Face it. The game already models civilian atrocity and death; the Great Purge, bombing infrastructure or resources, nuking provinces and destroying MP... why the heck can't it also include a half-way realistic attempt to include agriculture... you know, a commodity that most wars of history were fought over?!

 

[Hister]

face it. The game already models civilian atrocity and death; the great purge, bombing infrastructure or resources, nuking provinces and destroying mp... Why the heck can't it also include a half-way realistic attempt to include agriculture... You know, a commodity that most wars of history were fought over?!

+1

 

[Fulmen]

face it. The game already models civilian atrocity and death; the great purge, bombing infrastructure or resources, nuking provinces and destroying mp... Why the heck can't it also include a half-way realistic attempt to include agriculture... You know, a commodity that most wars of history were fought over?!

+2

 

[Herr Doctor]

I know simulation of genocides, population exterminations, terror bombing etc. isn't allowed at least in mods (then again DH isn't a mod, but the rules probably apply to any game released or sponsored by PI). Terror bombing is kind of shady since in part the strategic bombing feature in-game is in part terror bombing.

What about expulsion of the Jews and Berbers from Spain in Eu2 and Eu3? This is pretty allowed for some reason...