Food as a resource

[Cybvep]

IMO the new strategic resource feature will give the modders the option to include food as a resource. Not in the same way rare materials or supplies are included, of course, but we will be able to give regions such as Ukraine, Siam or China their historical importance when it comes to food.

 

[aahari]

So I would suggest one read the game manual (which I acknowledge, leave much to be desired) and understand the concepts that it does cover:

HOI3 Game Manual, pp28
"B8.0 Consumer Goods"
Consumer goods represent the many things regular people
find necessary for everyday life – food, gasoline, household
utilities, etc. During wartime, the people are generally more
understanding of tough times and have a reduced demand
for Consumer Goods. Even then, it’s necessary to keep a
steady supply of these products available, or else the people
will begin to become dissatisfied, causing Dissent to rise and
National Unity to suffer.
There is a minimum level of Consumer Goods you must
produce, which is below the level at which you begin getting
Dissent. However, if you want to avoid or reduce Dissent, you
must produce a higher level of Consumer Goods by using the
sliders in the Production Interface. The level of demand for
Consumer Goods can be modified through Educational or
Industrial Policy Laws, Ministers, Government Ideology, and
whether or not you are at War. If your country has lost a lot
of its Victory Points in war – if you’re losing – your citizens’
demand for Consumer Goods will also be lower.
All military units also require a certain amount of
Consumer Goods during peacetime, though this need ends
with full Mobilization, as the needs of the units move away
from domestic peacetime concerns and toward more purely
military needs. A higher Neutrality rating lessens your Units’
need for Consumer Goods."

From HOI2 - Definition of Supply pp7
"Your ability to supply, outfit and transport your troops will be vital to your military success. Armies require ammunition and food (supplies) to fight. ..."

Given that both IC and Supplies are of strategic importance in this wargame, one can argue that Paradox has incorporated food as a strategic resource. Strategic bombings and taking of victory points/provinces effects IC and Supply capability and thus food.

 

[unmerged(149383)]

So I would suggest one read the game manual (which I acknowledge, leave much to be desired) and understand the concepts that it does cover:

HOI3 Game Manual, pp28
"B8.0 Consumer Goods"
Consumer goods represent the many things regular people
find necessary for everyday life – food, gasoline, household
utilities, etc. During wartime, the people are generally more
understanding of tough times and have a reduced demand
for Consumer Goods. Even then, it’s necessary to keep a
steady supply of these products available, or else the people
will begin to become dissatisfied, causing Dissent to rise and
National Unity to suffer.
There is a minimum level of Consumer Goods you must
produce, which is below the level at which you begin getting
Dissent. However, if you want to avoid or reduce Dissent, you
must produce a higher level of Consumer Goods by using the
sliders in the Production Interface. The level of demand for
Consumer Goods can be modified through Educational or
Industrial Policy Laws, Ministers, Government Ideology, and
whether or not you are at War. If your country has lost a lot
of its Victory Points in war – if you’re losing – your citizens’
demand for Consumer Goods will also be lower.
All military units also require a certain amount of
Consumer Goods during peacetime, though this need ends
with full Mobilization, as the needs of the units move away
from domestic peacetime concerns and toward more purely
military needs. A higher Neutrality rating lessens your Units’
need for Consumer Goods."

From HOI2 - Definition of Supply pp7
"Your ability to supply, outfit and transport your troops will be vital to your military success. Armies require ammunition and food (supplies) to fight. ..."

Given that both IC and Supplies are of strategic importance in this wargame, one can argue that Paradox has incorporated food as a strategic resource. Strategic bombings and taking of victory points/provinces effects IC and Supply capability and thus food.

So you're saying that as long as you build enough industry(IC) you will never get food-shortage, since you then get what you need in terms of consumer goods and supplies (FOOD)? Yes, it works like this in HOI, but does it really IRL? This is only true as long as you actually have enough commodities (is that the right word?) to process them into "food". I would guess that this industrial processing is what PI had in mind when speaking of producing food. Would have been great if we could eat factories tho..

 

[aahari]

So you're saying that as long as you build enough industry(IC) you will never get food-shortage, since you then get what you need in terms of consumer goods and supplies (FOOD)?

No. I simply posted the definition from the manuals. And it appears that Paradox has, in an abstract way, incorporated food in the system. Industry is not an exclusive term to mean factories (see below). Nor do supplies exclusively mean bullets. Output of wheat, food stuff or even cars are dependent upon the given capacity of the means that product them. Not enough land/people or machines to harvest the wheat then you aren't producing up to capacity; not enough industry to process the wheat for consumption then you're not producing up to capacity; not enough factories to build cars based on demand then you're not producing up to capacity. Converse is true.

There is a term we've used for over 90 years now: The Agricultural Industry. As in real life, if you have enough resources (arible land, water, fertilizer, seeds, time to plant-harvest, good weather, etc...) then yes, one should have enough food production.

Mind you, the issue of food availability/resource wasn't the issue; the majority of food shortages aren't production related. The majority of food shortages are caused by human actions. The denial of access to food through bad infrastructure, a conscientious act by military/politicians to deny food to the populace and such. Examples abound: getting the food to remote areas in Pakistan during the 2010 flooding; Ethiopian troops roadblocks and hoarding of tons of food in the 1980s, same with Somalia crisis of rebel troops preventing food aid from leaving the ports; same with Nazi occupation of Ukraine - destroyed crops, volatility of the front and poor infrastructure didn't benefit the Axis strategically one bit while at the same time it didn't starve the Soviets into submission. May I go on?

Yes, it works like this in HOI, but does it really IRL? This is only true as long as you actually have enough commodities (is that the right word?) to process them into "food".

That is the correct word. Many do term foods as "commodities", and even trade them as such in markets such as CME, CBOT, NYMEX and COMEX. As for your former comment; HOI is a wargame, not a RL simulator.

I would guess that this industrial processing is what PI had in mind when speaking of producing food. Would have been great if we could eat factories tho..

For the record, the above is your definition/interpretation even though the term "food" is spelled and expressed in the game manuals. I'm not sure how one comes from this sentence: "CG represent many things regular people find necessary for everyday life..." and walks away interpreting it as: 'regular people find necessary for everyday life [to] "eat factories..."?!

 

[jju_57]

So you're saying that as long as you build enough industry(IC) you will never get food-shortage, since you then get what you need in terms of consumer goods and supplies (FOOD)? Yes, it works like this in HOI, but does it really IRL? This is only true as long as you actually have enough commodities (is that the right word?) to process them into "food". I would guess that this industrial processing is what PI had in mind when speaking of producing food. Would have been great if we could eat factories tho..

Yea like land battles, spying, research and all the other things in HOI3 work like they do in real life. Your argument is an ad hominum.

 

[Balesir]

Given that both IC and Supplies are of strategic importance in this wargame, one can argue that Paradox has incorporated food as a strategic resource. Strategic bombings and taking of victory points/provinces effects IC and Supply capability and thus food.

Mentioning food in the manual does not show that the strategic effects of food and agricultural goods supply are represented well in the game - they really aren't. Supplies in WW2 were 80%+ ammunition, spare parts and similar - food was added more as an afterthought than anything else (in wars previous to WW1 food was not supplied from the home nation at all - it was purchased or requisitioned locally except for sieges and similar, static operations), so representing supplies as made of metal and rare minerals is not that much of a stretch. Consumer goods, on the other hand, are a really poor representation of food - if supplies were 20% food and CG 100% food, apparently the UK armed forces eat more than the entire of the rest of the population of the British Empire in 1940... That's not even to mention that the resources to make both supplies and CG come from the wrong places for them to be food.

Yea like land battles, spying, research and all the other things in HOI3 work like they do in real life.

I thought land battles and research worked OK, actually. Naturally, I think AoD land battles work better, but that's pure bias Spying, on the other hand, needs work...

 

[aahari]

Mentioning food in the manual does not show that the strategic effects of food and agricultural goods supply are represented well in the game - they really aren't.

Agreed as I never personally expressed whether the HOI did an exceptional job or otherwise. I only pointed out that it does seem to be represented.

Supplies in WW2 were 80%+ ammunition, spare parts and similar - food was added more as an afterthought than anything else (in wars previous to WW1 food was not supplied from the home nation at all - it was purchased or requisitioned locally except for sieges and similar, static operations), so representing supplies as made of metal and rare minerals is not that much of a stretch.

That is correct but relative to which armies one is speaking of. With a very few exceptions, and those were at a tactical level, the US army for example was not one to requisition/purchase locally; everything was practically shipped from the home front.

Consumer goods, on the other hand, are a really poor representation of food - if supplies were 20% food and CG 100% food, apparently the UK armed forces eat more than the entire of the rest of the population of the British Empire in 1940... That's not even to mention that the resources to make both supplies and CG come from the wrong places for them to be food.

Well, I can't debate that as I'm not aware of the actual ratio's the game designers planned for food specifically when CG is broadly defined to include things as: "food, gasoline, household utilities, etc..."

Anyway, HOI is not intended to be a Vicki where food is a resource. From the Vicki2 Wikipedia: "The game gives a lot of importance to the economy of a country by having a complex market system with over 50 types of goods and factories.[9] While warfare is a component of the game it is not the primary focus as in other Paradox Interactive games such as the Hearts of Iron series" source.

btw; for anyone interested here is an interesting site that discusses rationing in the UK during WW2.

 

[Balesir]

btw; for anyone interested here is an interesting site that discusses rationing in the UK during WW2.

I remember similar stories from my parents and grandparents - but actually I don't think rationing (in any country) is all that poorly represented by the CG demand drop. The reduction in available resource winning from Africa and India as a result of the need to grow more food locally after Burma fell and a rice surplus was lost, however, is not represented. Something that article doesn't mention is the turnover of land to food production in the UK; not only agricultural land, but gardens, parks, in fact any available green space was cultivated - reducing other agricultural product output and taking labour that might otherwise have been in the mines or factories.

 

[dethtongue]

Having food supply bundled into consumer goods is a good way of abstracting its importance. Consider that food production isnt JUST farmers out picking corn or potatoes or beets or whatever. You also need to have a very efficient collection, consolidation, and distribution system. (Im pretty sure if you see a factory or two in Iowa it isnt literally a factory so much as a way of abstracting the distriubution system.)
You also need to have a dedicated infrastructure to "convert" that food into a finished product: How many MILLIONS of cans of Spam did the United States produce for its armed forces in WWII? Those cans werent "picked" by a farmer, and each can has probably DOZENS of ingreedience other than ham parts required for its manufacture.

Some areas may be more conductive to agricultural production than other regions, but the soil, the land, even the numbers of farmers is a tiny whole of a much larger network. Consider: The Ukrane was considered the breadbasket of the Soviet Union, and hence one of the reasons given for Hitlers interest in it, but for almost the entire existance of the Soviet Union they were forced to import MILLIONS of tons of grain in order to feed their population. It wasnt so much that the region itself was incapable of it as it was a faulty distribution system.

Everyone knows about Allied Lend Lease, and everyone knows that the Soviet Union recieved thousands of planes, and tanks, and small arms. etc, and everyone decries its signifigance if looking only at the weapons systems delivered (which makes some sence given that the allies pretty much gave the Soviets all the weapons they considered too crappy to use anyway), But where Lend Lease becomes decisive is when you look at all the agricultural products (supplies) shipped to the Soviets, and to a lesser scale all of the Allies recieving aid.