Food as a resource

[unmerged(143223)]

In order note to clutter down this thread with off topic, I desided to start a new thread.

We already have consumers goods and supplies to represent starvation for civilians and soldiers, respectively. And we have a tech to for improvements in agriculture. Why would we need a food-resource?

Consumer goods and supplies do not represent food any more than aliminium and tungsten. To even proclaim such statement indicates very little knowledge of the economic aspect in industrial warfare.

Because food is the most important recourse in war and life in general.

Explain too me why food is not represented by consumers goods and supplies. Explain too me why we need a food resource. And explain to me how such a resource could be handled by the game*.

*Since food almost exclusively consists of agricultural products, nearly every province would produce them. This would not only be cumbersome, it would also have some strange effects (like the ability to bomb field lands with substantial effect). There might be solutions, and it's these I want to read.

 

[binTravkin]

Because you cannot turn IC into food.
In fact you turn food into IC as it requires substantial surplus of food to even have people working in industry.

 

[Easy1]

The term IC is not based on food production. Agricultural industry is not included in IC. Producing consumer goods (what is not actually food either really) with the same industry as produces battleships is not very sophisticated. Not at all bearing in mind the importance of food.

We need food as a resource because it is a major war winning/loosing factor. Everything in war does not come down to the size of the heavy industry, which in HOI reflects a wide range of resources and aspects. Germany did not loose WW1 because of lack of IC (hence comsumer goods). Japan did not loose WW2 because it lacked IC. The allies did not direct naval naval blackades against these countries to damage their IC.

If there ever is shortage of food, the affected population will cause social turmoil, and capitulation will come next. This happens long before the starvation you all talk about.

Do you really imagine yourself food as a bomb-able resource?

Some regions are extremely effective and valuable food producing regions. These regions have unique strategic vaule. If food is included as a strategic resource, it could be handled exactly like the other strategic resources, exept it is present in regions and not provinces. And it will not take damage from bombing of course.

 

[Ksyr]

It is already implemented in the form of a manpower bonus. Better agriculture tech means fewer people have to farm to produce the same amount of food so the farmers sons can become soldiers instead. You can also sustain a larger population on the same amount of farmland thus having even more manpower in the long run.

A solution may be to make this more clear to the player. Not really making any changes to balance, but some statistics for manpower showing aprox. how many people doing what.

Also I have always assumed food and water was part of the supplies created with IC.
For IC that creates food take a look at this: http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/806.html
Not a cargo ship and not a warship. This is IC making food.

 

[binTravkin]

It is already implemented in the form of a manpower bonus.

This is IC making food.

Sorry, your post just doesn't need more serious answer than that.

 

[Easy1]

It is already implemented in the form of a manpower bonus. Better agriculture tech means fewer people have to farm to produce the same amount of food so the farmers sons can become soldiers instead. You can also sustain a larger population on the same amount of farmland thus having even more manpower in the long run.

A solution may be to make this more clear to the player. Not really making any changes to balance, but some statistics for manpower showing aprox. how many people doing what.

Also I have always assumed food and water was part of the supplies created with IC.
For IC that creates food take a look at this: http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/806.html
Not a cargo ship and not a warship. This is IC making food.

Unless you are able to eat metal those links do not provide much. You are talking about the effectivity of the agricultural industry. You are righ, this effectivity is affectet by technology and IC.

I, however, are talking about the food as a value in itself. If you don't have any region suitabe for food fproduction technology and IC doesn't help much. A more effective agricultural industry can free up men so they can serve in the army indeed. It cannot, however, provide potential food that never existed in the first place.

 

[Ksyr]

Easy1
Yes, they can. I'll repeat what I wrote above: You can also sustain a larger population on the same amount of farmland thus having even more manpower in the long run.

You don't eat the ship. You eat the food that is processed into supplies onboard and shipped ashore. It's IC and it is producing food that would never make it to the front without it.
So the food exists and the IC makes it possible to eat it before it spoils. The link was to a factory ship that did indeed turn food into supplies until it was sunk. The ship itself is not important, but was meant to show that IC can indeed make food. There is a lot of potential food to harvest if we have the right IC.

I understand your point of view, but please bear in mind that food is already implemented in the game. I welcome another strategic aspect to the game, but don't overpower it by forgetting it is already there in one way already.

 

[Easy1]

Easy1
Yes, they can. I'll repeat what I wrote above: You can also sustain a larger population on the same amount of farmland thus having even more manpower in the long run.

You don't eat the ship. You eat the food that is processed into supplies onboard and shipped ashore. It's IC and it is producing food that would never make it to the front without it.
So the food exists and the IC makes it possible to eat it before it spoils. The link was to a factory ship that did indeed turn food into supplies until it was sunk. The ship itself is not important, but was meant to show that IC can indeed make food. There is a lot of potential food to harvest if we have the right IC.

I understand your point of view, but please bear in mind that food is already implemented in the game. I welcome another strategic aspect to the game, but don't overpower it by forgetting it is already there in one way already.

Again, we are not talking about the same thing. Anyways, if your argument is that IC reflects agricultural industry because it reflects production of whale ships, it is not up to par.

No matter how great your technology is, and how large your IC base is, you cannot really make an effective food producing region out of Greenland. Thas is my point exactly.

Food is not included in the game. If it was, India would have been the most IC rich region in the world.

 

[Ksyr]

Did I say that IC reflects only food? Did I say it reflects nothing else. Please point me to it because I would very much like to see it. I guess you feel threatened so you have to "misunderstand" on purpose. Don't worry, I'm not here to "get" you. As I've already said, I would like to see it implemented, but how do you propose it is done?

You use greenland as an example? Why? Does seafood count as food or do you only want landfood in the game? If so, what should be done about countries that mostly live off fish?

Would a food rich region provide the same amount of food if it had the right IC? Like a tin can factory? or a milk bottle factory? a farm machinery factory? Do you think India could produce the same amount of food today as in the stone age? Does it have more manpower now? Does it have more IC? Could it send food halfway across the world without IC?

The potential food is there and building IC makes you capable of turning it into supplies.

A whale ship is not the same as a factory ship.

Last I'm going to mine some quotes from the OP: And explain to me how such a resource could be handled by the game*. There might be solutions, and it's these I want to read.

 

[unmerged(143223)]

Because you cannot turn IC into food.
In fact you turn food into IC as it requires substantial surplus of food to even have people working in industry.

The term IC is not based on food production. Agricultural industry is not included in IC. Producing consumer goods (what is not actually food either really) with the same industry as produces battleships is not very sophisticated. Not at all bearing in mind the importance of food.

Agriculture is not included in IC, but why not agricultural industry? By 1936, few people self-reliant on food in the parts of the world were wwII was mainly fought. You can't eat an agricultural product directly, it needs to be processed at an industry.

This leads, in my opinion, to the conclusion that agricultural industry at least to some extent can be considered IC. Agricultural industry can be geared towards civilian (consumer goods) or military needs (supplies). Bombing campaigns against such industry would hamper military efficiency, as well as cause social turmoil (see below).

We need food as a resource because it is a major war winning/loosing factor. Everything in war does not come down to the size of the heavy industry, which in HOI reflects a wide range of resources and aspects. Germany did not loose WW1 because of lack of IC (hence comsumer goods). Japan did not loose WW2 because it lacked IC. The allies did not direct naval naval blackades against these countries to damage their IC.

That food trade blockades can hamper a state is a valid point. I don't have any arguments against it.

If there ever is shortage of food, the affected population will cause social turmoil, and capitulation will come next. This happens long before the starvation you all talk about.

Okey, starvation wasn't exactly the right word. Social turmoil is a much better word, which is covered by dissent and national unity.

Do you really imagine yourself food as a bomb-able resource?

No, but if food were modeled as just another resource alongside engery or metal, it would be bomb-able. I'm asking how to make it none-bomb-able. The upcoming strategic resources in For the Motherland might be able to

 

[Easy1]

Did I say that IC reflects only food? Did I say it reflects nothing else. Please point me to it because I would very much like to see it. I guess you feel threatened so you have to "misunderstand" on purpose. Don't worry, I'm not here to "get" you. As I've already said, I would like to see it implemented, but how do you propose it is done?

You use greenland as an example? Why? Does seafood count as food or do you only want landfood in the game? If so, what should be done about countries that mostly live off fish?

Would a food rich region provide the same amount of food if it had the right IC? Like a tin can factory? or a milk bottle factory? a farm machinery factory? Do you think India could produce the same amount of food today as in the stone age? Does it have more manpower now? Does it have more IC? Could it send food halfway across the world without IC?

The potential food is there and building IC makes you capable of turning it into supplies.

A whale ship is not the same as a factory ship.

Last I'm going to mine some quotes from the OP: And explain to me how such a resource could be handled by the game*. There might be solutions, and it's these I want to read.

Did I say you said IC reflects only food? I didn't.

I don't think seafood is relevant. It is too "common", not unique enough. Kind of exist in every sea province, just like regular food production exist in as good as every land province.

I'm thinking of regions with highly effective and intensive agricultural industry. Classic bread basket regions. Examples: The Midwest, the Pampas, Northern France, India, Denmark etc. These regions could have "agricultural output" as a strategic resource.

I'll just put it this way for you. If tou were to choose between a tin can and four tomatoes, what would you choose? The tin can factory is of no use in this matter, if you have no food, while a tomato crop is still valuable, even without a nearby tin can factory. Food is a primary sector of the economy, everything that rarefy it is not. I am NOT talking about industrial and technological effectivity. Does not make sense to talk about industrial and technological effectivity in the case of oil extraction regarding HOI either.

Agriculture is not included in IC, but why not agricultural industry? By 1936, few people self-reliant on food in the parts of the world were wwII was mainly fought. You can't eat an agricultural product directly, it needs to be processed at an industry.

This leads, in my opinion, to the conclusion that agricultural industry at least to some extent can be considered IC. Agricultural industry can be geared towards civilian (consumer goods) or military needs (supplies). Bombing campaigns against such industry would hamper military efficiency, as well as cause social turmoil (see below).

That food trade blockades can hamper a state is a valid point. I don't have any arguments against it.

Okey, starvation wasn't exactly the right word. Social turmoil is a much better word, which is covered by dissent and national unity.

No, but if food were modeled as just another resource alongside engery or metal, it would be bomb-able. I'm asking how to make it none-bomb-able. The upcoming strategic resources in For the Motherland might be able to

To you I want to say that there is a reason that every country has its ovn self sufficient agricultural industry. Even my country, arctic Norway preserves its own food production. Its insanely ineffective doing it here though, about 80 percent of our farmer's sallary is from public subsidies. The argument for self sufficiency is related to military-political aspects.

Nope, some countries imported food during WW2, and they had to. Many coutries still need to import food.

Great Britain would be in deep trouble without India. Japan is fucked without Manchuria and/or Indonesia (Java and Sumatra)

Sure you can eat an agricultural product directly. Still, in many parts of the world, food is not processed by an industry. This is not my point though, see my answer for Ksyr.

I don't think it should be bomb-able. An intensive agricultural region is more about climate, geology and topography than industry. Just make it a static resource, like manpower.

 

[sneakey pete]

Unless you are able to eat metal those links do not provide much. You are talking about the effectivity of the agricultural industry. You are righ, this effectivity is affectet by technology and IC.

I, however, are talking about the food as a value in itself. If you don't have any region suitabe for food fproduction technology and IC doesn't help much. A more effective agricultural industry can free up men so they can serve in the army indeed. It cannot, however, provide potential food that never existed in the first place.

*pitures*

To be fair you also have to remember that soil quality has an effect on production too. There's regions in Australia in your map (with the same farmland area ratio) that would support 1 sheep for 25 acers, and areas in Europe that would support 25 sheep per 1 acre. Just a nitpick, not really arguing with whatever else you are saying, but framland area does not equal farmland soil quality

 

[Easy1]

To be fair you also have to remember that soil quality has an effect on production too. There's regions in Australia in your map (with the same farmland area ratio) that would support 1 sheep for 25 acers, and areas in Europe that would support 25 sheep per 1 acre. Just a nitpick, not really arguing with whatever else you are saying, but framland area does not equal farmland soil quality

True that. But as a general rule, dense cropland indicates good soil quality. Anyways, these maps should be followed up with statistics.

 

[Ksyr]

It's interesting, but how do you want it in the game? A strategic bonus of some sort like in the new DD? Owning a food region gives a bonus to what?


A new resource that can be stockpiled same way as metal and energy? Should food be included as something that is needed to keep IC running?(workers need to eat? food goes into supplies?) How specific should it be? As the game is now it takes the same amount of steel to produce one ton of tanks as one ton of rubber boots. Should food be this abstracted too?

How should manpower and supply production be balanced?

 

[unmerged(143223)]

I'm thinking of regions with highly effective and intensive agricultural industry. Classic bread basket regions. Examples: The Midwest, the Pampas, Northern France, India, Denmark etc. These regions could have "agricultural output" as a strategic resource.

Okey, but now we are talking about something completely different (No Monty Python reference intended). Now, you want to represent food/agriculture as a bonus, rather than a resource every country in the game needs.

To you I want to say that there is a reason that every country has its ovn self sufficient agricultural industry. Even my country, arctic Norway preserves its own food production. Its insanely ineffective doing it here though, about 80 percent of our farmer's sallary is from public subsidies. The argument for self sufficiency is related to military-political aspects.

HoI3 is a war game. To me, it seems perfectly all right to resort to military based arguments.

Nope, some countries imported food during WW2, and they had to. Many coutries still need to import food.

I didn't say that no country had to import food to sustain itself. I said "That food trade blockades can hamper a state is a valid point." .

 

[Praetori]

Food would need to be tied to population (which there is none in Hoi3). We have MP which is a really awkward translation that doesn't really reflect the MP of the actual nations during the period (US for example).
The main issue as I see it is that the normal luxury goods (such as meat, cheese, spices and similar) are already represented/abstracted in consumer goods. The fact that these cannot be traded and that the national production rate is so high (which negates any need to import it anyhow) makes any hit to the national unity pretty improbable.
A lack of food but not in consumer goods (which would be far from impossible if food was its own resource, strategic or not, given the IC tie-in with consumer goods) would be very weird.

IF food was to be modeled then I'd rather see some provinces/regions (like parts of Ukraine) be given a modifier or bonus to the consumer goods production (through the already incorporated strategic effects).

 

[Sirveri]

It's interesting, but how do you want it in the game? A strategic bonus of some sort like in the new DD? Owning a food region gives a bonus to what?


A new resource that can be stockpiled same way as metal and energy? Should food be included as something that is needed to keep IC running?(workers need to eat? food goes into supplies?) How specific should it be? As the game is now it takes the same amount of steel to produce one ton of tanks as one ton of rubber boots. Should food be this abstracted too?

How should manpower and supply production be balanced?

These are all good questions. One of the historic reasons the man with the funny mustache went into the Soviet Union was, other than the oil, the Ukraine, which was basically the bread basket of Russia. It was a very important area.

Actually I wish that there were laws that affected supply consumption (maybe tied to training). Russian troops typically ran VERY lean, compared to German and especially American forces. Then with strategic resources above it could provide maybe a bonus to supply production, and we could also simulate the differences in supply ideology.

 

[madprofmike]

food as a resource i say no to, but "Agriculture Goods" as a resource a BIG YES!!

food is to specific it only encompasses one aspect and over all doesn't effect a nations IC but "Agriculture Goods" as a whole does and in many ways.

here are a few examples
cotton = soldiers uniforms
canvas = airplanes skins
hemp = rope, backpacks etc
livestock = leather, glue, soaps and explosives (yes look it up-"The Second World War saw a rise in animal fat demand for explosives and artillery. One pound of fat was said to contain enough glycerin to make a pound of black powder, enough for six 75mm shells.")
wood = rifle parts, aircraft (de Havilland Mosquito and the Heinkel He 162)
rubber = the list is to long
plants = oils, lubricants etc.
and ya food.
well you get the point agriculture is a very much need resource that isn't in the game at this point and i think it needs to be.


BASE RESOURCES
Energy/Electricity
Metals/Alloys
Rare Materials/Compounds
Petroleum
Agriculture Goods

these resources are needed to make IC which makes everything else (except fuel which is made from petroleum/energy(coal) oh and agriculture goods.

thats my two cents

 

[Mongoose33]

Adding this implementation should affect Nat.Spain. Their joining to Axis at least.

 

[Balesir]

The "Agricultural Products" resource is a very fine idea, but even with that I would see benefits in including food or grain as a specific resource (maybe as an SR).

The British Empire and the USSR, in particular, were so governed that regions specialised in various producs. This had nothing to do with Industry, as such; Burma, for example, was a major rice exporter to Bengal, Africa and Malaysia. The Japanese invasion caused major disruption that are completely unrepresented in the current game.

The effects of losing these areas come in two stages; short term effects (possibly modelled as dissent - basically this is food shortages, which, if not managed well, could be disastrous - Google "Bengal Famine") and the long-term effects of reducing productivity everywhere as each region had to divert resources to growing their own food (this might best be represented as removing a bonus from countries that originally have specialist food-producing areas).