Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Font and resolution, is this why?

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
jonnyincognito

jonnyincognito

Colonel
12 Badges
Jan 25, 2005
935
0
www.yerma.com
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
Hey everyone,

I recently purchased a 17" flat panel LCD and had the often talked about problem with the fonts and graphics in HoI2. Strangely, I also suffered the problem on other games. Windows seemed to work fine though.

I started to look into it, because when looking at the resolution settings something just stuck out. Tell me what you think about this theory:

All but two of the most common resolutions are of a ratio of 1:1-1/3rd.
640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, 1152x864, and 1600x1200. all have this ratio. The 17 flat panel I recently purchased had a native of 1280x1024. This is a ratio of 1:1.25. The monitor is taller compared to the width vs. the ratio most monitors have. In the games I play, if they don't have the option to run in this native resolution or I don't run them in it it seemed as everything was stretched and/or fuzzy. Text was noticably hard on the eyes.

I have since taken that monitor back and purchased a 15" lcd with a native of 1280x1024. The text of HoI which runs at the same ratio (800x600 I think?) is much clearer. Perhaps it was just the monitor, but I tried three diffrent 17" (two of the same make and model, and Bestbuy said they were the best for gaming! Of course they've been known to be wrong.) and all three weren't acceptable. The 15" on the other hand seems to be perfect. The only text that still seems fuzy is that of the province names on the main map. I believe this is a problem of the graphics being expanded to meat the needs of lcds of larger native resolutions.

For those of you having problems, what's the native resolution of your monitors? I'm very curious to see if this theory and my little experimentation with the ones I bought is true!


Joshua
 
LCD is TERRIBLE for gaming. Best Buy is a corporation looking to rip you off as much as possible and make the most possible profit. So their job is to promote the word 'crystal' in the name, charge you 2 or 3 times more, and you end up with a much worse monitor. LCD is an old technology that is good for laptops because it's low-power and smaller. The quality suffers in exchange for the low-power usage of course.
 
I have a 21" LCD that runs HOI2 just fine. HOI2 only displays at 1024X768 so the native resolution of the monitor in Windows shouldn't be releveant. I know of no modern monitors that won't properly display XVGA 1024X768. I'd be curious to know what the issue is, myself.
 
Actually a LOT of people with LCDs have complained about this. I've been in fights with many that refuse to beleive that it could be their monitor's fault instead of HOI2's because their monitor is 'cool' and thus Paradox was simply bad for not making the game perfectly compatible with their monitor.
 
gunnergoz said:
I know of no modern monitors that won't properly display XVGA 1024X768. I'd be curious to know what the issue is, myself.
Click to expand...

Well then you simply aren't very well read. The issue is Interpolation. It is what a monitor does to display an image when the source isn't the same as it native resolution. CRTs and many LCDs do not suffer these problems. But almost 100% of LCDs built a couple of years ago suffer from it. Interpolation was a creation since users wouldn't suffer the black border around an entire picture. There's already been a zillion messages on this. I have one - NEC 1850E (now you can't claim ignorance). It is only two years old but it interpolates poorly. Thankfully I don't use it for my primary machine or I'd probably be as upset as many of these folks here.

The reality is that a design decision was made a long time ago to support exactly one resolution. That was probably a mistake.

There is a lesson here: Do not ever ever buy a computer from someone making minimum wage.
 
Plutarch said:
Well then you simply aren't very well read. The issue is Interpolation. It is what a monitor does to display an image when the source isn't the same as it native resolution. CRTs and many LCDs do not suffer these problems. But almost 100% of LCDs built a couple of years ago suffer from it. Interpolation was a creation since users wouldn't suffer the black border around an entire picture. There's already been a zillion messages on this. I have one - NEC 1850E (now you can't claim ignorance). It is only two years old but it interpolates poorly. Thankfully I don't use it for my primary machine or I'd probably be as upset as many of these folks here.

The reality is that a design decision was made a long time ago to support exactly one resolution. That was probably a mistake.

There is a lesson here: Do not ever ever buy a computer from someone making minimum wage.
Click to expand...

I felt sort of miffed about the "not well read" comment until I got to the confessional part about buying computers from "minimum wage" workers. Then I laughed at the irony of the supposedly "well-read" consumer being snookered by some fast-talking store BS artist.
:)

However, I do think that the comment about "minimum wage" workers is a bit unfair, since there are a lot of struggling folks out there doing their best in a low-paying job. And gosh knows that I've gotten some crappy advice in my day from folks being paid considerably better than me (e.g. "consultants") for their supposed "expertise"...which mostly consisted of their skill at conning management into hiring them at stunning pay levels just to dispense dubious advise.
 
I for my part have tried out HOI2 on three different monitors now. Two TFTs and 1 CRT. All of them 17" and they all look awfull.

So AFAIC, I'd buy the explanation about the screen ratio problem. for a while at least. I'll now try to experiment with other resolutions than 1280*1024 and 1024*768 to see if that solves the problem (800*600 is no better FYI).
 
Actually, I don't have HOI2 ... maybe one day.

But I do have EU2 and Victoria.

For both of them, I downloaded font mods that both changed the text font (to something crisper) and somewhat enlarged the point size.

I have tried these mods for EU2 and Victoria on a 20" CRT at 1024x768, 15" laptop at 1024x768 (native), and a 15" LCD at 1024x768 (native) ... and I must say that they vastly improve the viewing of both games.

Granted a 20" CRT for 1024x768 or 15" laptop/LCD for 1024x768 (native) is optimal, but I still have no doubt that a font mod would help improve the readability of HOI2.

Unfortunately, I don't have the links for either of these two mods with me. But perhaps you can search the forums and try contacting the authors to see if they could whip something up for HOI2 (assuming that they have the game). Just a thought.

---

One other thing ... if you are running XP and an LCD, you might try turning cleartype on or off and see if it helps improve the character presentation.

---

Most LCDs have a 1:1 pixel mode where they don't interpolate. You'll end up with a smaller display and a black border for the game, but effectively it will be native resolution in the smaller viewing area.
 
ColtSyme said:
LCD is TERRIBLE for gaming. Best Buy is a corporation looking to rip you off as much as possible and make the most possible profit. So their job is to promote the word 'crystal' in the name, charge you 2 or 3 times more, and you end up with a much worse monitor. LCD is an old technology that is good for laptops because it's low-power and smaller. The quality suffers in exchange for the low-power usage of course.
Click to expand...
You dont have a clue what you are talking about :rolleyes:
 
I can try to explain this issue.
HOI2 only runs in one resolution namely 1024x768 which is a 4:3 resolution like most other. The main problem is that mostly every standalone 17'' and 19'' LCD monitor has a native resolution of 1280x1024, a 5:4 resolution. While laptops have all sorts of different resolution, but usually not 1024x768 unless they are either new 12'' ones or pretty old (i.e. 3+ years).
The problem should not be relevant for CRT users as all monitors I've seen scale nicely and should be able to show a crystal clear picture of HOI2 in it's resolution of 10x7.
The problem with LCD's is that they do not scale very well. HOW well they do scale is usually dependant on how good/expensive they are within their size class. So as long as an LCD has to scale you are dealing with a bad picture at least compared to an CRT monitor. This is especially true for any LCD that has a native res of 12x10 and thus has to scale down from a larger 5:4 res to a smaller 4:3 res. While the 20'' and 21'' LCD's usually use the 4:3 resolution of 1600x1200 as well as are normally so high-end that they do scaling pretty well. So the "best" solution for anyone that uses a LCD with another resolution than 10x7 is to check out the menu of their monitor and see if they have an option of NOT scaling the picture but instead giving you the black borders. You will loose some screen real estate but at least the picture should be sharp and clear. If you can't do that then you are basicly out of luck. In theory you can get a utility that scales the picture up to 12x10, but since the interface and the font that HOI2 uses AFAIK do not scale at all you'll get an ugly picture anyway :(

And using LCD's for playing games is normally not a problem at all (at least not if you aren't in the top 100 of FPS players in the world). The game should have an option of setting the resolution to the native resolution of your LCD, which is why HOI2 is a problem. You also need a new panel with new technology so that ghosting is not a problem (if you are playing fast FPS's) and then you should be all set.

Cobos
 
I understand and appreciate all the tech talk here.

But the central question still remains unanswered: why did HOI1 stand crystal clear - in all three resolutions on the same monitor where HOI2 now looks like crap?

If what is posted here was THE explanation, there should be no difference.
 
Although it is probably somewhat less immersive when you have your windows desktop peeking around the corner.
 
By design, HoI1 supported multiple resolutions, and HoI2 doesn't. Personally, I can't fathom the reasoning behind that decision when LCD monitors are becoming more and more common. Frankly, it strikes me kind of like releasing a game that doesn't support the use of a mouse or something - maybe barely acceptable in 1994, but not today.

I did just try the patch that lets you put HoI2 in windowed mode, and it looks pretty decent. But *sigh* it forces you to downgrade your colors from 32 bit to 16 bit, which means you have to remember to switch that back when you're not playing HoI. Can't be helped, I suppose - not supporting LCD monitors in the first place is the real fault, not this nice little third-party workaround:

http://www.geocities.jp/soukan_n/f/index.html#tip
 
Sgt. Bulldog said:
I for my part have tried out HOI2 on three different monitors now. Two TFTs and 1 CRT. All of them 17" and they all look awfull.

So AFAIC, I'd buy the explanation about the screen ratio problem. for a while at least. I'll now try to experiment with other resolutions than 1280*1024 and 1024*768 to see if that solves the problem (800*600 is no better FYI).
Click to expand...
My reason for bringing this up is because at least in the little bit of experimenting I did it wasn't the resolution of the game OR the resolution of the monitor that was the problem, it was the resolution ratio of both being disimiliar. I too believe the problem is The issue is interpolation. Given the length to width ratio at which HoI runs compared to the ratio of most 17" LCD screens, you get a stretching effect as well as a bit of pixelation because they are taking a smaller picture and fitting it to a bigger screen to prevent the black bars around the outside (Who wants to play a game in letter box format?!?)

To make it easier to visualize, it's like taking a picture 10" tall by 13.33" wide and compressing it to 10" by 12.5". Or, more closely, one that is 5" by 6.66" and stretching it to 10" x 12.5". The picture will be distorted because the ratios aren't the same. Toss in the interpolation effect (which is basically the monitor extrapolating how to fill in all the extra pixels when it expands a picture) and you get a fuzzy, distorted picture. At least that's my theory, and it seems to be backed up by my experiments because the graphics on my new 15" are perfect.

I agree with the statement about buying things from someone selling them. I never take them at their word, that comment was more of a cut on Bestbuy staff for not knowing their products. When I went back and tried to explain WHY I wanted to return the 17" for a 15" they just kind of looked at me like I was speaking gibberish.

Lastly, if I had a choice I'd go with a CRT. Problem is the frigging footprint is way too big for the built in desk at the apartment I'm in! LCD's aren't terrible either, the one on my laptop smokes anything I've seen so far and runs everything excellent! Of course, it's an Alienware, so it better!


Joshua
 
Sgt. Bulldog said:
Well, my TFT presents everything else perfectly! So it's not that cheap-of-the-back-of-a-lorry problem. All works perfectly - except HOI2.

SO I can't really accept the explanation that I bought some wrong hardware.
Click to expand...


You brought up a great point about HOI1, It supported more resolutions and looked good on most screens wether they be and old CRT monitor from the early nineties. or a brand spankin new LCD, or CRT. Its the fact that HOI2 doesnt support the amount of resolutions that HOI1 did. Crazy too me. HOI2 forces your monitor to work harder then it had to in HOI1, because HOI1 had more inbetweens, inregards to resolutions.

I think its a combinations of all of the factors mentioned.

Sucks as i do have a brand new 21' LCD that i would love to play some HOI2 on.
 
Just so people don't misunderstand what I was trying to say...
If you got a cheap/old/"not good at rescaling" LCD display HOI2 will look bad. That is essentially a problem with the design of HOI2, i.e they have strangely strict requirements for their game. But if you've got a CRT or a LCD that is good at rescaling you can minimize the problem that Paradox created.
Just so that is clear....

Cobos
 
The reason (I think) that the picture is clearer on a 15'' than on a 17'' is that the pixels are smaller, thus making the picture sharper. You did say they had the same native resolution?

In regards to seing the windows desktop when playing windowed, IMO that's a fair price for getting rid of the crappy quality of the picture otherwise.

I suspect that this is WAD just as all the other WAD's that make NO sense whatsoever, so the best workaround for this WAD if you cannot turn of the interpolation(sp?) is to play windowed.

Cheers
 
This may sound pretty stupid, and it's coming mostly from my lack of experience with LCDs, but does fiddling with the screen's controls make any difference? I mean reducing the width of the displayed image to something closer to the 960 "hardware pixels" that would make the image 4:3. Is that possible?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back