Fleet Stack Penalty? 艦隊決戦?

[btxsqdr]

Hey,

I'm following the (fantastic) Blorg stream from the beginning. I'm also playing Paradox games for a decade. Thank you guys for that, it's really a pleasure to watch. I look forward to the release.

I see that Stellaris, like most sci-fi 4X games, has a fleet stack issue -- the so called Stack of Doom issue.

We can see it with the Blorg videos too. They basically constantly build and manage 1-2 large fleets (stacks) and party through the galaxy. It was mentioned in a video recently that a solution to Stack of Doom is supposed to be the size of your empire, so the bigger your empire, the less the Stack of Doom matters -- an argument that somehow survives for over 10 years now, in all kind of games with Stack of Doom tactic issues. It is, of course, a bit wrong, like it was in old CIV and all kind of 4X games. I broke all kind of 4X games with this strategy before, Endless Space too, so I wonder if Stellaris will be the same.

In EU4, CK2, HOI3, VIC2 etc. you are often, although it depends on the game, punished for too big fleet, army or air fleet formations, for a good reason. So far it seems that you can break the game by basically use a Stack-of-Doom-tactic and kill all fleets until you start to bombard/conquer the planets; so you have your Stack-of-Doom as hunter and the rest is bomarding/conquering. In the videos I've seen formations of more than 100 ships. Could it be that the Stellaris game designer is a fan of Kantai Kessen, 艦隊決戦, or Decisive Battle Doctrine? It's like an invasion of France with a single decisive battle and hunter/siege formations after that. There is a good reason why the mentioned games try to prevent such boring game mechanics.

So, I wonder, will there be a max_stack penalty of any kind? Leader skill? Attrition? I'm not even referring to real-life historic fleet issues (D-Day 1944, French Invasion of Russia 1812 or Spanish Armada 1588; the logistical preps for D-Day were insane and still many things went wrong (it would be probably the attrition or penalty mechanic in many Paradox games), although it was a success in the end due to the size) that did show that huge land and naval battles are sometimes lost or endangered due to communication and logistic issues.

 

[grumphie]

as the devs said before, fleet limits and the liek just didnt work. poeple would just grab the max size fleet and move them together for a de-facto doomstack.

the the recent stream wiz already split up his fleet in smaller ones because it's impossible to wage a nromal war with just a doomstack. while wiz would be hitting one system with his stack the AI could take everything else back and raid his space, and leave him open on a LARGE part of the galaxy. the early game is not representative of this as all empries are still functionally OPM-3PM minors in EUIV terms - the fleet sizes are not nearly large enough to consider splitting them up. his fleet strenght at the time he took over the owls and honorbound warriors was ~700 and ~1000 respectivly - not even the strenght of a single battleship. wiz's fleets right now are 2 stacks of 5k. and even after he stomped a fleet/got stomped by a fleet it he could pump out another few K worth of ships before they could have invaded his planets - not to mention other stacks still left to dfeat so splitting up the fleet in tiny stacks just to blockade wasnt an option.

 

[Andrzej2]

I think that every fleet should need supplies (energy and food) and to replenish them fleet would need to land on the planet or at spaceport. So you couldn't just besiege all enemy planets after one decisive battle becouse you wouldn't be able to supply your ships deep into enemy space.

 

[barny]

Any arbitrary limit of this kind would actually ruin the game for me, so please don't. The laughable stack penalties in HoI 3 were an utter disaster for the game already.

And as they say in the last stream: Yes, you can put all your ships in one fleet, but then other regions are open to attack, specially if you wage a war with at multiple fronts.

I actually thought the last stream would show, that this "Oh, you just need one ball of death and then win one battle to win the whole war" thinking is wrong and that it doesn't work like that in the game (apart from the early stages).

 

[Heatth]

It have been a long time since I played Civ4 but back then I remember I simply couldn't have a single doomstack for my empire in the pre-railroad times. Even with a full road network, units move way too slowly for that to be optimal. Unless I know where all my enemy armies are and am sure no one will sneak attack me, I have to have some backup ready. I haven't been keeping up to date with Stellaris streams, but it seems to me that is the case there as well. Moving between systems can be surprisingly slow, so it is not like you can instantly have your main fleet in position.

 

[cletusallretus]

I agree that there should be some kind of stacking penalty. That penalty should come into play at the point of battle. The larger a force is the more difficult it is to use effectively. This penalty would simply reflect the difficulty for C&C. supply, and logistics of large fleets. I think the penalty could be modified by tech and leadership rankings. I don't think a penalty such as x number of ships can only be allowed would be good , but I do think after x number of ships in a battle combat efficiency should have a penality

 

[Fonz]

I know you're starting the stream from the beginning, so I recommend you watch the latest stream on 21st for how equivalent strength combat works. The earlier ones is just them squashing inferior empires with less ships and less tech, so a Doomstack is the best as they didn't have more than 1 fleet. Without spoiling too much, they had 2 fronts to fight on and had they not split the fleet they would have been absolutely wrecked on one front. Then, newly conquered planets have no fortifications, and it's very easy to retake if you don't leave a sizeable garrison for both army and fleet. So you can't keep a Doomstack for very long.

There really is no point of a fleet cap, it used to be there and it served no purpose. It's just a horrible artificial cap.

 

[Hanekem]

I think there should be some sort of blockade mechanc or some sort of raiding mechanic that would force the creation of lesser "defense" or Coast Guard fleets.
As it stands, though I still need to see the full blorg videos, it seems like the only way to fight is win the decisive battle and then mop up.

 

[Orkonkel]

Mobility just seems super important, and I think wormhole FTL is something that'll be able to deathball smaller navies without overextending your reach. With other FTL techs, you're relying on being able to move from one scene of battle to another without arriving too late.

This looks super exciting to me. Can't wait to try it out for myself.

 

[Xerberus]

smart AI counters doomstacks which seemed to happen in the last blorg stream, stop assuming something without playing the game nor viewing all the available content.

 

[ikki]

in the future there exists targeting computers that talk to each other as opposed to overtly exited human commanders who begin shooting in any direction once the battle begins,,, and the doomstack fleets begin fighting their own side

 

[naisel]

I think there should be some sort of blockade mechanc or some sort of raiding mechanic that would force the creation of lesser "defense" or Coast Guard fleets.
As it stands, though I still need to see the full blorg videos, it seems like the only way to fight is win the decisive battle and then mop up.

To win a decisive battle, the enemy has to offer you one. In the last stream the southern enemy fleet was nowhere to be seen, they attacked the Blorgs only when the odds were in their favor.

It didn't happen in the north because they were smaller and tried to make a last stand in their core system.

 

[Tim_Ward]

The doom stack non-issue more like.

 

[hjarg]

Using doomstack means you'll have 1-2 fleets to cover your let's say 20 something systems AND be on offensive.
Smart AI or player can counter it by raiding, hitting weaker targets, your stations and such, reducing your doomstacks from aggressive force to reactive force and leaving initiative to your enemies.

 

[Hanekem]

To win a decisive battle, the enemy has to offer you one. In the last stream the southern enemy fleet was nowhere to be seen, they attacked the Blorgs only when the odds where in their favor.

It didn't happen in the north because they were smaller and tried to make a last stand in their core system.

that is actually good, but that is simply delaying the inevitable, saving some serious error from the stronger enemy, and is leaving your heartlands open to invasion or bombardment (we really need the option to just kill a planet's pop, BTW), if you can do raiding, then that would make the deny decisive battle a bit more credence, it would force your enemies to split their forces further, and allow you to, maybe, defeat them in detail.

on any case, it would add more strategic options to the arsenal, and that is always good.

 

[Exemplar Voss]

I think that every fleet should need supplies (energy and food) and to replenish them fleet would need to land on the planet or at spaceport. So you couldn't just besiege all enemy planets after one decisive battle becouse you wouldn't be able to supply your ships deep into enemy space.

Well, there is. Damage to ships doesn't repair in space- they have to be sent back to a spaceport to repair. It is actually why they lost ships in the war with the lizards that became the party zone. After the big fleet battle, they just sent the ships on to deal with the enemy spaceport, and several ships were so damaged they were destroyed handily by its defenses.



As for no doom stacks, that would play out exactly like the northern empires fleet against the Zracon and Blorg fleets: two smaller fleets crushing the enemy between them and acting exactly like a doom stack anyway.

 

[cletusallretus]

While the game is unfinished at this point and what we see in the streams isn't without it's issues , so far the side using one or two stacks has won every time.

Now having said that I am not in favor of limiting fleet size. Players should be allowed to doomstack if they wish , but in Stellaris there seems to be no penalty for doing so as there is in CK or EU namely attrition. I would just like to see something to replace attrition in Stellaris. I think a penalty to combat efficiency would fit the bill. The size of the fleet before a penalty kicks in could easily be modified by such things as leadership rank and tech. and should be applied at the point of battle.

 

[cletusallretus]

Using doomstack means you'll have 1-2 fleets to cover your let's say 20 something systems AND be on offensive.
Smart AI or player can counter it by raiding, hitting weaker targets, your stations and such, reducing your doomstacks from aggressive force to reactive force and leaving initiative to your enemies.

Yes, while you have a valid point, the fact remains that tactic didn't work on the southern front. That tactic also works only so far as whomever controls the areas being raided cares.
If I'm relatively certain I can take out your ability to make war before you can take mine out the loses I take become acceptable.

 

[Admiral Howe]

Paradox REALLY needs a sticky on "popular topics" with their resolution/definitive answer. Make reading it part of "da rulz".

 

[ikki]

im sure 10 hugboxes per border system would have kept the enemy in order.
that and actually using just one fleet, leaving the west to the ally to worry about.
Oh and your sectors can rebuild destroyed hugboxes, so such minor setbacks mean nothing.

meanwhile the fleet would have kept on bombarding and taking enemy planets. One after another.
the immediate southern neighbour would have been in shambles.

the sole difficulty lies in managing both the hitting army and a groundhuggerfleet and keeping the latter out of fights. especially against a AI that is the supreme master of micromanagement for maximum harm.

Perhaps forward hugboxes to keep the first taken system safe?

 

[Druesling]

I think something like space attrition would be the thing to push my suspension of disbelief beyond limits. In space there is enough space (that's in the name really) for any countable number of spaceships, so that's no reasonable reason for fleet caps, and a species that sends their navy up into space without a recycling system for water and enough army biscuits and hot pop sausages doesn't deserve to leave the trees in the first place.
Also the newer installments of the stream showed that a single doomstack tactic does not work in a large enough empire.
Also: After all it's real time, so I personally don't want to manage 20 little doomstacks, I think two to five are enough, depending on your realm size.