Fleet on Strike Force force docking itself away from battle

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FireZealot

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Hi, I'm doing my first real naval MTG game and having confusion with the naval AI.

I'm Japan and have conquered all the Pacific Islands, including Hawaii and North Alaska. What's weird is that my fleets on Strike Force are insisting on moving away from the combat zone, often basing in ports FAR away from the front.

For example, I forced one carrier task force to move to Alaska to raid California bases. Instead the AI wants to move it to Micronesia? Despite me even blocking repair at that port? In other instances I'm having patrol combat off the California coast and the AI wants to move a (fully repaired) combat fleet back to Hawaii right next to it? I have no naval missions set in either the Caroline or Marshall islands, why are they going there?

Bare minimum base in Hawaii so you're closer to the action?

What am I doing wrong?

 
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SophieX

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Hi, I'm doing my first real naval MTG game and having confusion with the naval AI.

I'm Japan and have conquered all the Pacific Islands, including Hawaii and North Alaska. What's weird is that my fleets on Search & Destroy are insisting on moving away from the combat zone, often basing in ports FAR away from the front.

With my old computer I can't see picture ( black screen only ), but something doesn't match in your statement

- If you play the DLC Man the Guns, you don't have the mission "Search & Destroy" anymore. May be the fleet is returning to its home-port? With MTG fleets do not have a home port anymore.
Check, whether MTG is enabled, because it seems that this DLC is not running in your game.
- Take a look at your engaging-rules. ( little click-box in the "fleet-view" on the right side )
 

FireZealot

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Sorry about that, I was using the old terminology. It's ticked as strike force. I'm pretty sure MTG is enabled as I can make naval modules and what not. Currently set to engage at high risk.
 
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Axe99

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I've found this - with your strike force missions, it's important (in my experience) to move them manually to the port you think will work best. I have no idea how this plays out for the AI, but I imagine it does them no favours.
 
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Mousetick

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Like Axe99 said, you need to move a task force on Strike Force mission manually to a port of your choosing that you think is best. Otherwise the game will pick a port automatically - the criteria it uses for selecting the port are unknown, but it often makes bad choices.

If you move a task force manually to a sea zone, and then give it the Strike Force mission, it will immediately move to an auto-selected port. The Strike Force mission must operate off of a port, it can't work while already at sea.

Also in your example, your Strike Forces are assigned to 6 sea regions, some of them are pretty large. That's a lot of area to cover. Unless you can distribute your task forces among ports that are all relatively close to the assigned sea regions, they will have a hard time reaching the enemy fleet(s) in time in all of these zones, or they may not have sufficient range to even get there.
 
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bitmode

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More generally speaking: in contrast to other missions TFs on strike force, naval invasion support or naval exercise have a fixed strike force base (which is not shown in the UI) to return to while there's nothing to do. This base only gets set when one of those missions is enabled, choosing the closest valid port from the current TF location. It only gets updated when issuing a move command on a port while one of these missions is enabled.
Thanks for the advice, I manually docking the fleets in San Diego and Honolulu did the trick. How far do you normally place your fleets?
Just outside of enemy bomber range. If enemy bombers are not an issue, as close as possible.
 
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Axe99

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What Bitmode said - I'd never have a strike force more than two sea zones away, and preferable in a port on the seazone. The way naval combat works is that a patrol fleet finds another fleet, and then they start duking it out. At the moment, quite a few results end up in a patrol fleet near-or-total stackwipe when one strike force turns up well before the other (because one's transiting from Southampton to the Eastern Mediterranean, say - for an example of when I forgot to manually move my strike forces once, so the patrol fleets were in the Central and Eastern Med, and the Strike Force had to travel all the way from Britain), leaving it as a patrol fleet vs a doomstack. You want your patrol fleet to be the one backed up by its strike force :).

As Bitmode also said, though - they need to be in a spot where enemy air isn't going to serious damage via port strikes.
 
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sekelsenmat

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Like Axe99 said, you need to move a task force on Strike Force mission manually to a port of your choosing that you think is best. Otherwise the game will pick a port automatically - the criteria it uses for selecting the port are unknown, but it often makes bad choices.

If you move a task force manually to a sea zone, and then give it the Strike Force mission, it will immediately move to an auto-selected port. The Strike Force mission must operate off of a port, it can't work while already at sea.

Also in your example, your Strike Forces are assigned to 6 sea regions, some of them are pretty large. That's a lot of area to cover. Unless you can distribute your task forces among ports that are all relatively close to the assigned sea regions, they will have a hard time reaching the enemy fleet(s) in time in all of these zones, or they may not have sufficient range to even get there.

By the way, in the Bay of Biscay I had subs raiding and a strike force, in a port near, but my strike force never joins the battle while the British strike force joins. Why?

It is hardcoded to never join convoy raiding battles? Or because the subs were retreating? I think I've seen the British strike force join convoy raiders, so that's why I'm confused. I think I tried always engage.
 

Mousetick

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I think I've seen the British strike force join convoy raiders, so that's why I'm confused.
Do you mean you saw the British strike force attacking your convoy raiders all by itself? That doesn't sound right.

As far as I know, a Strike Force can only join ship-to-ship battles (ship being surface or submarine, but not convoy). A convoy raiding (ship-to-convoy) battle would not satisfy that requirement.
 

sekelsenmat

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Do you mean you saw the British strike force attacking your convoy raiders all by itself? That doesn't sound right.

As far as I know, a Strike Force can only join ship-to-ship battles (ship being surface or submarine, but not convoy). A convoy raiding (ship-to-convoy) battle would not satisfy that requirement.

Not attacking my raiders: Playing as Italy I pretty much gave up assigning convoy escorts because British subs start raiding, my escorts start fighting them, then a British BB force comes and trashes my escorts.

What I was trying was to repeat this as Germany, but the strike force wouldn't leave the port ...

You say Strike Forces only go after ship battles, but if one side has escorts it's still a convoy battle? Because now both sides have ships or subs....
 

Mousetick

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Not attacking my raiders: Playing as Italy I pretty much gave up assigning convoy escorts because British subs start raiding, my escorts start fighting them, then a British BB force comes and trashes my escorts.
Ok. Sorry I misunderstood.

What I was trying was to repeat this as Germany, but the strike force wouldn't leave the port ...

You say Strike Forces only go after ship battles, but if one side has escorts it's still a convoy battle? Because now both sides have ships or subs....
It should work in this case, I think. Your Strike Force should join the escort-vs-raider battle. But are there actually any escorts in the Bay of Biscay attacking your raiders?
 
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sekelsenmat

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It should work in this case, I think. Your Strike Force should join the escort-vs-raider battle. But are there actually any escorts in the Bay of Biscay attacking your raiders?

Ok thanks, I just wanted to know if theorically it should work or not. Yes, there were escorts. Maybe I'll try again engage always.

But Paradox is wrong here. It should be impossible to intervene in a convoy battle even with escorts. Convoy raiding battles were very short. The famous Duisburg Convoy battle lasted only 40 minutes! Enough to trash 1 DD and 7 Italian convoy ships.
 
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FireZealot

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What Bitmode said - I'd never have a strike force more than two sea zones away, and preferable in a port on the seazone. The way naval combat works is that a patrol fleet finds another fleet, and then they start duking it out. At the moment, quite a few results end up in a patrol fleet near-or-total stackwipe when one strike force turns up well before the other (because one's transiting from Southampton to the Eastern Mediterranean, say - for an example of when I forgot to manually move my strike forces once, so the patrol fleets were in the Central and Eastern Med, and the Strike Force had to travel all the way from Britain), leaving it as a patrol fleet vs a doomstack. You want your patrol fleet to be the one backed up by its strike force :).

As Bitmode also said, though - they need to be in a spot where enemy air isn't going to serious damage via port strikes.

Whats your balance for low level (1->3) ports vs major naval bases for this? I used to have my strike forces near the combat zone, but noticed I was wasting months because my fleets were retreating to level 1 ports vs. repairing at major bases.

I suppose the ideal would be "base near the front line, but repair at major ports" but I struggle to get the AI to follow this. As a result I just block most minor level 1s.

Also regarding patrol fleets, what is your normal build?

For strike force I'm using 4CV + a shield of heavy cruisers, light cruisers and destroyers. Say, 4 CVs, 4 -6HCs, then rest mix of LC and destroyers.

For patrol, it depends but generally 6-12 destroyers or LCs. Occasionally I add a few HCs for "combat patrols" so to speak.

Also, does convoy escort grant spotting? I have a number of 4-12 sized old destroyer fleets on convoy escort and wondering if they would pick up the enemy.
 

Axe99

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But Paradox is wrong here. It should be impossible to intervene in a convoy battle even with escorts. Convoy raiding battles were very short. The famous Duisburg Convoy battle lasted only 40 minutes! Enough to trash 1 DD and 7 Italian convoy ships.

The timing of naval battles in the game is somewhat abstracted, to enable players to have some kind of participation (even a "long" surface battle would generally be less than one day, which is a very short number of turns in HoI4, and easily over before a player will have noticed it has started. I understand their move here to give players agency, and without all sorts of pauses, notifications, and 'games-within-a-game' I can't think of a system to give player the kind of agency they have now when it comes to naval battles. So it's not "wrong" per se, but more (I believe - I could be wrong) a conscious design decision to accept that the way it's simulated isn't entirely historically plausible, but more fun for the player (and it's not the only thing in the game like this, by any stretch - that all your generals and units do what they're told immediately in most situations, or that troops insta-unload from ships in one hour, or all sorts of other things, are understandable concessions to gameplay at the expense of realism when it comes to mechanics).

It gets even harder to simulate with battles going through multiple day-and-night cycles, as night actions during the period were, generally, very different from daytime ones!

Whats your balance for low level (1->3) ports vs major naval bases for this? I used to have my strike forces near the combat zone, but noticed I was wasting months because my fleets were retreating to level 1 ports vs. repairing at major bases.

I suppose the ideal would be "base near the front line, but repair at major ports" but I struggle to get the AI to follow this. As a result I just block most minor level 1s.

I usually block off the reports for repair that are too small to be useful. You may well already know this, but I'm 90% sure that if you block a port after it's started repairing, the ship will reallocate to a port it can repair from, so if you notice a stack of ten sitting in a dinky little level 1 port, turn it off and they should scoot to the next nearest port. It's very important to turn off ports for repairing that are under serious threat of enemy air strike.

Also regarding patrol fleets, what is your normal build?

I only play single player, so I don't have the tough-as-nails competition of MP to hone my builds, so I wouldn't necessarily pay a heap of attention to my general approach, but if the ships are available, then I'll usually go with 1 CA, 2 CLs and 7 DDs in my patrol fleets, and then the strike force is 1-4 CVs, and then the whatever capitals are available, making sure there are enough screens (I usually have 4 times the number of capitals as screens, so that the fleet doesn't need micro-ing after each loss).

Also, does convoy escort grant spotting? I have a number of 4-12 sized old destroyer fleets on convoy escort and wondering if they would pick up the enemy.

I don't know - good question! I don't think convoy escort fleets engage other fleets (I have no memory of this happening), but I haven't tested it. I expect it doesn't happen, as in my recent UK game I had a lot of escort fleets and I'd imagine there would have been more battles if they were spotting, but that's a guess.
 
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The timing of naval battles in the game is somewhat abstracted, to enable players to have some kind of participation (even a "long" surface battle would generally be less than one day, which is a very short number of turns in HoI4, and easily over before a player will have noticed it has started. I understand their move here to give players agency, and without all sorts of pauses, notifications, and 'games-within-a-game' I can't think of a system to give player the kind of agency they have now when it comes to naval battles. So it's not "wrong" per se, but more (I believe - I could be wrong) a conscious design decision to accept that the way it's simulated isn't entirely historically plausible, but more fun for the player (and it's not the only thing in the game like this, by any stretch - that all your generals and units do what they're told immediately in most situations, or that troops insta-unload from ships in one hour, or all sorts of other things, are understandable concessions to gameplay at the expense of realism when it comes to mechanics).

That's not what I meant. It's ok that battles go in slow-motion, what I want is that convoy raiding battles should remain just raider Vs escort, so that in the Mediterranean they don't always generate Jutland style BB actions for every single sub attack!

The Mediterranean had a huge amount of convoy battles and they never involved BB unless it was already part of the convoy escort. Without this change Italy cannot escort it's convoys

To trash the escorts with BB you would need a patrol fleet to start a normal battle as opposed to a convoy battle.
 
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To trash the escorts with BB you would need a patrol fleet to start a normal battle as opposed to a convoy battle.
Sounds very reasonable to me. At first I was sceptical whether this wouldn't lead to too few opportunities for strike forces to act. But I think it leads to a better balance between pitched battles and convoy related combat.
That's not what I meant. It's ok that battles go in slow-motion
When the spotting mechanic was announced, I kind of assumed the battles themselves would be shortened to more realistic durations.
Combats tend to snowballs as everyone and their mother’s fleet pile in
When the missions and engagement levels are set up and spotting goes through, there is really not much reason to artificially extend the battle any further. External planes can fly dozens of sorties, convoys can get stun locked in transit etc.
So in my opinion both your proposed change of leaving strike forces out of convoy battles and shortening battles (which gives a practical justification for the former) would improve naval warfare.
 
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That's not what I meant. It's ok that battles go in slow-motion, what I want is that convoy raiding battles should remain just raider Vs escort, so that in the Mediterranean they don't always generate Jutland style BB actions for every single sub attack!

Sorry, my bad, and a very good point :)
 

kettyo

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The Mediterranean had a huge amount of convoy battles and they never involved BB unless it was already part of the convoy escort. Without this change Italy cannot escort it's convoys

Can't you get advantage of this and use your convoys to lure British capitals into NAV range which will then trash them?
 

sekelsenmat

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Can't you get advantage of this and use your convoys to lure British capitals into NAV range which will then trash them?

Convoy battles don't attract capitals unless they are escorted, so it is an expensive bait as the escort DD will be killed by the capitals, but yes, you can assign NAVs and slowly kill the enemy subs without any destroyers assigned.

Anyway, my points were more about 1- learning how it works now and 2- how to make it more realistic.
 
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