Fleet formation control

[InfinityArts]

Currently, the fleet formation is a hodgepodge of ships determined by which fleet was merged with which in which order. When merging, the "main" fleet always shifts forward while the secondary fleet(s) will shuffle into formation behind them.

When you're assembling your first fleet, it's pretty easy to keep track of this and make sure that whichever ships you want in front is always the "main" fleet. It becomes a problem, however, when you later add more ships to the fleet. Same-class ships that should be together are in random positions around the fleet. Point-defense and "tank" ships that should be in front are instead at the rear. Long range ships get tossed to the front or middle, and the close-range ships have to shuffle around them to get to the fight.

So, I wanted to propose a "fix" for this. We already have a decent UI that tells us which ships of which class is in the fleet, why not extend this a bit further and allow us to drag & drop the classes on that row, which then arranges the fleet formation in the order we want.

Proposed fix.

Cheers.

 

[X3KJ]

Wouldn't it be easier to just determine it in the ships design? (specifying front/mid/rear/anywhere) Because then you wouldn't have to drag around stuff constantly for every new fleet you do. If you already build ships with certain role in mind you might as well specify it's preference there.

At a certain point of amount of designs in the fleet you can only see the healthbars, and not the ship icons anymore... Which would make it unwieldy.

 

[Al. I. Cuza]

Wouldn't it be easier to just determine it in the ships design? (specifying front/mid/rear/anywhere) Because then you wouldn't have to drag around stuff constantly for every new fleet you do. If you already build ships with certain role in mind you might as well specify it's preference there.

At a certain point of amount of designs in the fleet you can only see the healthbars, and not the ship icons anymore... Which would make it unwieldy.

Partially agreed. There should still be a way to design ship formations other than front/middle/back.

 

[InfinityArts]

You can set those by design, but how do you tell a PD corvette to stay in front of a PD destroyer? They'll both be specified "front" in their design. This way, we can fine-tune the formation as we see fit. Maybe I'm fighting a lot of torpedoes and want to put my Cruiser PD systems in front, so that even if they take some hits, they won't die en-masse like corvettes. Maybe I'm fighting a lot of autocannons and I now want to put my corvettes in front instead to take advantage of their higher evasion. Maybe I just want to change my formation on the fly instead of redesigning the ship and going back to port to "upgrade".

This is just an overall suggestion, if we want to get into nitty-gritty details, I'm sure it's not too much to ask that the cursor highlight the current design while hovering over it with another design selected. Dropping it would put it before/after that design (whichever works). You'd need to arrange it once for that fleet, from then on all future crafts of that design will automatically fall into those roles.

 

[Al. I. Cuza]

You could also just add a new UI element, some sort of formation screen. Where you can design the way your ships are located relative to each other.

But I wouldn't want too many tactical elements to detract from a truly grand strategy experience.

 

[X3KJ]

But I wouldn't want too many tactical elements to detract from a truly grand strategy experience.

I'm not sure what other people would be doing instead, as the grand strategy and other 4X elements are a bit thin. The combat is definitely extremely lackluster (larger stack of doom wins...). If somebody can't be arsed to fiddle with fleet controls, let an AI do it for him, or just leave it on "all ships everywhere" by default like it is currently.

 

[Al. I. Cuza]

the combat is extremely lackluster (larger stack of doom wins...). If somebody can't be arsed to fiddle with fleet controls, let an AI do it for him, or just leave it on "all ships everywhere" like it is currently.

Well, if there is a way to fiddle with the position of individual ships, there is an obvious benefit of doing it. So either change it in a way that every fleet is ordered the same way, or let the player decide how to do it in an easy way.

I'm just saying it would be way too much work to decide the position of every individual ship.

 

[X3KJ]

Well, if there is a way to fiddle with the position of individual ships, there is an obvious benefit of doing it.

Maybe a perceived benefit... in the first 5 seconds of combat. There is always the option of jumping out of the window, it's not beneficial to do it though.

 

[Al. I. Cuza]

Maybe a perceived benefit... in the first 5 seconds of combat. There is always the option of jumping out of the window, it's not beneficial to do it though.

So if the benefit is so small or irrelevant why even bring it up? I am trying to understand what the problem is, make a suggestion as to whether a proposed solution is in line with the design philosophy.

But then you tell me it isn't an actual problem.

 

[X3KJ]

But then you tell me it isn't an actual problem.

The decision between front/center/rear is important in large fleets. The larger, the more important. Changing individual ships position however... not really, imo. At the point where this becomes important is usually the point where you should instead split the fleet and use the two in conjunction with each other.

If the position is determined by design you dont have to fiddle with it per fleet level - basically no micro. Doing it on a per fleet level - if they want, why not? Let them have it, if they really think it makes a difference to them. It would make sense if you want to experiment with fleet composition quickly (instead of upgrading ship designs for a change in position...)

 

[Al. I. Cuza]

So in the end we agree that it is important to have some control over the position of your ships, but that too much control is pointless.

 

[X3KJ]

You shouldnt have to rearrange it mid-battle or constantly between battles, yes. But in my experience, with current mechanics - you would have very little benefit doing minute adjustements constantly anyway.

 

[Theatril]

Of course this is important. I do however believe that it would be better to have options regarding overall tactics. As it stand today, all ships do is to rush into a gigantic free for all. It would be nice to specialize in long range, short range etc and see the ships actually trying to maintain distance or close in on the other fleet, depending on your preference

 

[Al. I. Cuza]

To be honest I would even like it to be an abstract battle system like it is in EU4.

 

[Theatril]

To be honest I would even like it to be an abstract battle system like it is in EU4.

Yes, this would also be good. But as for now, it seems they are stuck in the middle between abstract and hands on. They have to choose one over the other

 

[TallTroll]

Harpoon had a good fleet formation mechanic. An adaptation of that would be good

 

[ShichiNoBushi]

I would like to implement some basic strategy to how my fleets engage in combat. Potentially assign some ships to sub-fleets with roles such as "front guard", "rear guard", "flanking", "intercepting", "long range barrage", etc. and maybe even set a target preference such as the whether the target has shields or heavy armor since specific weapons are more effective against ships with such components.

 

[mangalore]

I would also like to actually have some different formation. The wedge seems the stupidest choice for a space fleet for a head on battle imaginable.

I think something which orders the ships per class and maybe weapon range would suffice for most instances.

 

[VirtualCube]

Yes, so much this.

After I won a certain war, I only had 9 battleships left. Those battleships, being the sole survivors, are automatically at the front of my fleet. Now, I don't really mind having my most powerful ships tanking at the front, but since there's no "hit-box", they just blob one into another, which is... Quite ugly.