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johandenver

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Hello!

I've been playing HOI & HOI2 since they came out and I know what to do with the army and the airforce but the navy is a black-hole.
I always just produced a few carriers and a few cruisers and so on but I'm sure I could do so much better if I had a "naval strategy".

How do people compose their navies?
What kind of ship is like the infantry of the navy?

If you were to build a fleet of 18 ships, what would the fleet contain?
 

zeekater

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Hello!

I've been playing HOI & HOI2 since they came out and I know what to do with the army and the airforce but the navy is a black-hole.
I always just produced a few carriers and a few cruisers and so on but I'm sure I could do so much better if I had a "naval strategy".

How do people compose their navies?
What kind of ship is like the infantry of the navy?

If you were to build a fleet of 18 ships, what would the fleet contain?

If you want to know how to compose your fleets in HoI2 or HoI1 you should post in the appropriate forum.
If you want to know how people will compose their fleets in HoI3, you're probably a bit early ;)
 

CaptRobau

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It all depends on what doctrines you have. Essentially their is a path that makes:

1) submarines important
2) aircraft carriers important
3) surface fleet important

The submarine option is the most easy one as most countries don't yet have a very exclusive doctrine path yet (which would make it ineffective to abandon all those doctrines and then research submarine doctrines). It is semi-powerful but won't require that much management. Mostly for keeping enemy ships at bay instead of destroying an entire enemy fleet. In this option almost all of the 18 ships would be submarines in flottilas ranging from 6-9 submarine divisions.

The aircraft carrier option is very powerful but also very difficult. CVs take a lot of time to build and not all countries are good at CV tech. The fleet would consist out of 2 or more CVs, destroyers and several heavy or light cruisers.

The surface fleet option is all about raw power. Lots of guns on only 18 ships. Several battleships and for the reast heavy and light cruisers. Not battlecruisers as they're not that good at all.

For more information look at these wiki pages:

Naval Primer
Submarine Guide
Naval Doctrine

Hope I could be of assistance. Not sure this is supposed to be in here or in HoI2. But the basics are bound to be the same in terms of strengths, etc.
 

TRP

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Some fist rules to hold in thought would be:

- Even screen and large ships
- one CVL for each four carriers in a fleet (basically makes the CV's stronger and works like a tank)
- Naval battles won't do ridicoulous things: don't expect to see 20 sinks unless it was a really gruesome battle. Mostly you'll just scare the AI off and he'll scamper away tail between legs. If you want to hit the bastard, and hit him hard, send NAV's after the fleet when he runs, and pursue him untill he's back in port :). STR's and TAC's are decent NAV's too, if you're short on IC
- Respect the cruiserg.
- Respect the death-stack (Which, and let us all face it, is still an unconquerable tactic :))

That should set you up on your naval adventures. Go conquer the seven seas!
 

johandenver

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If you want to know how to compose your fleets in HoI2 or HoI1 you should post in the appropriate forum.
If you want to know how people will compose their fleets in HoI3, you're probably a bit early ;)

I see know that I failed to specify which game I was asking about.
Well, I was aiming for HOI3 but, as you say, that's a bit early.
Although, the basic build of a fleet should be roughly the same I think.
 

johandenver

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It all depends on what doctrines you have. Essentially their is a path that makes:

1) submarines important
2) aircraft carriers important
3) surface fleet important

The submarine option is the most easy one as most countries don't yet have a very exclusive doctrine path yet (which would make it ineffective to abandon all those doctrines and then research submarine doctrines). It is semi-powerful but won't require that much management. Mostly for keeping enemy ships at bay instead of destroying an entire enemy fleet. In this option almost all of the 18 ships would be submarines in flottilas ranging from 6-9 submarine divisions.

The aircraft carrier option is very powerful but also very difficult. CVs take a lot of time to build and not all countries are good at CV tech. The fleet would consist out of 2 or more CVs, destroyers and several heavy or light cruisers.

The surface fleet option is all about raw power. Lots of guns on only 18 ships. Several battleships and for the reast heavy and light cruisers. Not battlecruisers as they're not that good at all.

For more information look at these wiki pages:

Naval Primer
Submarine Guide
Naval Doctrine

Hope I could be of assistance. Not sure this is supposed to be in here or in HoI2. But the basics are bound to be the same in terms of strengths, etc.

Thanks alot TRP & CaptRobau!
This was exactly what I was looking for.
Now I can start planning how I'll build an efficient fleet for HOI3 :)
 

johandenver

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What other ships is a good idea to put together with submarines?

I've read about the Cruizerg-tactic on the wiki now (hadn't even heard the term before) but I won't be using that approach.
I wan't to build a navy that reasonably realistic and at the same time effective :)
Besides, what I'm planning for is HOI3 and the exploits of the older games probably won't work there. :)
 

CaptRobau

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Because you can cover larger parts of the sea/ocean that you're patrolling while convoy raiding (which is what submarines are especially good at). If you encounter a surface fleet just reroute the other submarine fleets in that area so that you'll have a fighting chance. An 18 flotilla submarine fleet is only efficient at killing surface fleets (to a certain degree). For all other purposes 6-9 or even 3 is good enough especially when playing (semi-)realistic.

Also this is far more realistic. I don't know how many submarines are in a single flotilla in HoI2 but 18 single submarines would already be a big wolfpack during WWII let a lone 18x?.
 

johandenver

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Ok, I see the point.
I'll only use subs for convoy raiding I think so 4-5 together will be enough.

That's another thing I'm curious about, perhaps this will be clearer in HOI3, how many Destroyers are actually in a DD-division?
The same for Light Cruisers and subs.
 

blue emu

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how many Destroyers are actually in a DD-division?
The same for Light Cruisers and subs.
Paradox has never stated how many real-life units one counter represents. Analysis and comparison of the real-life UK Navy in Sept 1939 compared to the in-game UK Navy in the 1939 scenario would indicate that Light Cruisers (and all larger ships) are represented 1-to-1 in the game (ie: 12 Light Cruisers actually represents 12 Light Cruisers), but Destroyers and Submarines represent about 5 ships each.
 

Makeyourownmind

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I've read about the Cruizerg-tactic on the wiki now (hadn't even heard the term before) but I won't be using that approach.
I wan't to build a navy that reasonably realistic and at the same time effective :)
Besides, what I'm planning for is HOI3 and the exploits of the older games probably won't work there. :)

I think you are right (with both). I hope they need to make as less rules as possible. Lets see what they say in the development diarys: in DD#10 they say that light ships are best suited to detect enemy ships and that there are multiple detection levels. So, if you don't have light ships, only your enemy can initiate battles. And if the detection also determines how surprised you are (means the combatrange), that could get rid of the rule: have the same number of screening ships as capital ships. Because you are screwed build in if you can't manage to detect the enemy. So, based on strategy and tech, you have to build screening units of your own (or have to work around it if you can). Basicly this means if the realworld advantages are mirrored ingame, you come to realworld solutions.

In the DD#18 they stated that each ship determines it's own position. That gives away the advantage of the Cruizerg: that all ships can fire at the same range, i. e. cheap firepower. If your light cruisers are a suitable part of your firepower, and they get spread instead of concentrated (positioning error), the tactic is dead.

I also hope that BB's get the most bang for the buck (vs surface units, means not vs aircraft and submarines); historically big, powerfull armored ships have evolved because light couldn't compete with them. Heavy cruisers have another function: to work around big battleship fleets and get the job done in small groups or alone, and because they are faster than battleships, they can evade them. Battlecruisers have been build to hunt CA's.

Yes, these concepts are World War One, and are a little bit outdated in WW2, and during the war the function of these ships change with advancing techs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets see what and why germany planned his fleet (1938, don't sweat if you find other numbers, this plan was constantly changed):
10 BB's
4 aircaft carrier
15 Panzerschiffe
5 CA
44 Atlantik "screening ships" with high range (CL and very large DD)
158 DD and Torpedo boats (i think they mean ships bigger than S-Boote/E-boats)
249 U-boats
+ smaller units

There where two school of thoughts (and neither one got enough influence to get the whole budget):
- the first school demanded a large battle fleet capable of taking on the most powerful opponents (Britain and France); they are responsible for the BB's and CV's
- the second school signs responsible for the large force of U-boats and medium-sized warships such as the panzerschiffe for destruction of the enemy's commercial shipping.

It was also noted that the amount of fuel needed to keep the units runnung was more than immense, and it was scheduled to store 10 million tons of fuel (more than one and a half year of germanys consumption at that time).

Conclusion: even if they could have build the fleet until 1947 as planned, they have frittered themself in two different directions; the load on the industry would have been immense and the amount of fuel needed was also. Also, they would have violated the treaty with GB and they knew it and were not keen to find out how GB would react.
 

Solon

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Hello!

I've been playing HOI & HOI2 since they came out and I know what to do with the army and the airforce but the navy is a black-hole.
I always just produced a few carriers and a few cruisers and so on but I'm sure I could do so much better if I had a "naval strategy".

How do people compose their navies?
What kind of ship is like the infantry of the navy?

If you were to build a fleet of 18 ships, what would the fleet contain?
Never forget that HoI-xx was always a very good strategic LAND war game. It was a so-so strategic AIR war game, with lots of complaints about the latter and changes over the years to improve the AIR modeling.

The NAVAL war game was always the 'unwanted orphan' of the HoI world, and a precious few 'bones' were thrown to it over the years. The way I have always viewed it is that Paradox simply did enough to clean up any egregious NAVAL flaws that interfered with the LAND war game. They have never devoted serious efforts to create a truly realistic NAVAL war game within HoI.

However, in that goal Paradox has been mostly successful. The NAVAL war game can interact STRATEGICALLY with what is going on on land in a reasonable way. The difficulty comes if you really have a keen desire to play Admiral some day!

The way around that is to cheat. Yes, you heard me properly, cheat. For example, I have always wondered what a really fast dedicated BC group could do, or a large number of long-range BC's operating as commerce raiders? So I go into the files and change their values. No, I do not make them the equal of the fast battleships in attack or defense, but I do adjust their (oceanic) range, and particularly their speed, so they can run away from most, but not all, things out there. Speed also affects their positioning during a battle. Furthermore, I will make them cheaper and easier to produce, so I can have enough of them to play with at the key points of the war.

What I have just mentioned will not change the course of any war you are in, and provides a lot of satisfaction. Naval battles progress differently, etc. In short, game the game to try out different things. Things you try and like, keep! Leave the adjustment in your software.

You are, after all, the commander of your nation...The First Lord of the Admiralty as it were! If you want to build a cruiser that looks like a pencil, carries one turret and flies over the waves, then imagine that you spent the pre-war money and create a gigantic factory to build them cheap before 1936. How about a BC with the same gun range, half the normal attack and defense, but a speed of 40 knots and a range of 20,000?

In short, understand what HoI is, and enjoy it within its limits.

Happy sailing!:rolleyes:

Solon
 

unmerged(141364)

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It really depends on what you're going to use your Fleet for.

For me, the only purpose of any navy is to secure the crossing of the English Channel. If your's is to do other things, oh say blowing convoys up, conquering distant islands, etc, you'll need to focus purely on your Navy.