Flaws list (also feature request)

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Pitt The Elder

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Technological progress isn't steady. It was accelerating non-stop since the end of dark ages. I must admit I don't remember the exact modifier value, but five years of progress in 20th century (namely 1940-19451935-1940: from steam to diesel, from armored cars to full-blown heavy tanks, from short-range recon planes to strategic bombers, etc etc etc) equal about 70 in 15th (for example, to develop plate armour from coat of plates, it took about a whole century; I can provide more examples if you wish).

Clearly you don't really understand much about history. The Dark Ages weren't really a thing like people imagine it, certainly not in terms of technological development. To the extent that they existed at all, the Dark Ages were a political and economic slump. And the political part essentially relies on you believing that Rome was super cool and damn it's a shame that it's gone.

Then, there's the problem where your examples are incredibly cherry picked. You don't get to pick 5 years of the most tumultuous war in human history and assume that it is representative of technological progress in the 20th century as a whole. If there's some tech tree we have to climb to take us from armored cars to heavy tanks, why didn't that happen in the 20's right after tanks were invented? If anything, there was a retreat from the concept of heavy tanks, for entirely non-technological reasons.

And yes, I would love to hear about all the examples you have saved up.

My first point is: It has happened before timeline X. It happened after timeline X. No reason it can't happen in the timeline X. EU is not about following history, it's about making it. So yeah, even if it didn't happen in the etalon timeline (which I'm doubtful of), there is no reason for it not to happen in yours.

My first point is: No, it didn't happen before/after the timeline; you mostly just made those examples, or made some gross simplification of what actually happened. Next we'll be hearing about how mighty German warrior bands totally conquered Rome, and therefore German culture countries should get free CBs on France, Spain, North Africa, and Italy.

My second point is: "It can be done in the real world" is all the reason you may ever need to implement something in any game that represents reality. You can threaten the government of the conquered country to either die or surrender unconditionally, therefore you should be able to do it. You can attack without warning, therefore you should be able to do it. Of course, the consequences are yours to handle, too, so you may choose to refrain from one action or the other, but it must be your choice entirely.

My point is thins should at least be semi-plausible. I'm totally OK with an option that allows you to issue ultimatums, with the caveat that every nearby nation should despise and team up against you for doing it. And you always could attack without warning. It's called every EU3 DoW ever.

In short, it appears you want a realistic, down to earth game, that's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots.
 

unmerged(499943)

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1. Don't mistake the game mechanic of declaring war with a "real" declaration. What you seem to be missing is the ability to surprise the enemy but it's already in the game: When you declare war your enemies will often have lowered their army maintenance, giving you up to 3 months of a military advantage. I'd thus argue that this feature has already been implemented. Also total wars were rather unheard of in the time frame of EU3.

2. Enemy armies with 0 morale are wiped when encountering your forces, one of the best ways to achieve this is to surround them to control their movement. I am not sure how much more annihilation you need?

[...]

5. Terra Incognita in game terms doesn't mean that it cannot be accessed by group of explorers, it just means that it is impossible to perform game relevant actions there, i. e. the province cannot sustain settlements of a relevant scale and doesn't allow the crossing of sizeable forces.
 

User29

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1. Don't mistake the game mechanic of declaring war with a "real" declaration. What you seem to be missing is the ability to surprise the enemy but it's already in the game: When you declare war your enemies will often have lowered their army maintenance, giving you up to 3 months of a military advantage. I'd thus argue that this feature has already been implemented. Also total wars were rather unheard of in the time frame of EU3.

2. Enemy armies with 0 morale are wiped when encountering your forces, one of the best ways to achieve this is to surround them to control their movement. I am not sure how much more annihilation you need?

[...]

5. Terra Incognita in game terms doesn't mean that it cannot be accessed by group of explorers, it just means that it is impossible to perform game relevant actions there, i. e. the province cannot sustain settlements of a relevant scale and doesn't allow the crossing of sizeable forces.

I totally agree with number 5, I want to be that Sultan exploring the South, I just want to be an artist painting the map ;_;
 

Hisu

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Clearly you don't really understand much about history. The Dark Ages weren't really a thing like people imagine it, certainly not in terms of technological development. To the extent that they existed at all, the Dark Ages were a political and economic slump. And the political part essentially relies on you believing that Rome was super cool and damn it's a shame that it's gone.
Might be. Care to elaborate?

Then, there's the problem where your examples are incredibly cherry picked. You don't get to pick 5 years of the most tumultuous war in human history and assume that it is representative of technological progress in the 20th century as a whole. If there's some tech tree we have to climb to take us from armored cars to heavy tanks, why didn't that happen in the 20's right after tanks were invented? If anything, there was a retreat from the concept of heavy tanks, for entirely non-technological reasons.
First, I've corrected myself, picking 1935-1940 period. While "5 years of the most tumultuous war in human history" just started at the end of this timeline, in 1939.
Second. Strategic bombers, heavy tanks and diesel engines were not just invented, but mass-produced (or, in case of strategic bombers, ready for mass production) years before WW2, not during. For example, the T-35 tank (designed in 1932, mass produced in 1933-1939; while the peak of production was reached in 1936) for heavy tanks. Diesel engines also were mass-produced, look up Mercedes-Benz 260D and Citroёn Rosalie Familiale 11UD (both were produced in 1933-1939); also, 500hp W2 tank diesel (mass production started in 1938). Third, strategic bomber TB-7 (aka Pe-8 or ANT-42) was designed in 1934-1938; in 1938, it was ready for mass production. The sole reason it wasn't mass produced is that USSR command didn't see the need for them in any forseeable future, but the production lines were there, ready to bake the cakes immediately after the command has been given.

And yes, I would love to hear about all the examples you have saved up.
I didn't. But if you state the requirements, I will dig up periods and then ask you to find something similar in scale done in similar timeframe. What will it be? Computers? Space industry? Lasers? Something else?

My first point is: No, it didn't happen before/after the timeline; you mostly just made those examples, or made some gross simplification of what actually happened. Next we'll be hearing about how mighty German warrior bands totally conquered Rome, and therefore German culture countries should get free CBs on France, Spain, North Africa, and Italy.
Please specify. Was was that gross simplification I made? That both Attila and Napoleon razed cities? Or that ultimatums were issued (granted, I oversimplified ultimatums themselves, but, I think, gameplay-wise it's not that gross)?

My point is thins should at least be semi-plausible.
And I don't ask for anything more.
"It could have been done, therefore let the player try it".

In short, it appears you want a realistic, down to earth game, that's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots.
Where did that come from?

Don't mistake the game mechanic of declaring war with a "real" declaration. What you seem to be missing is the ability to surprise the enemy but it's already in the game: When you declare war your enemies will often have lowered their army maintenance, giving you up to 3 months of a military advantage. I'd thus argue that this feature has already been implemented.
You have a point here, thanks.
But then, wouldn't it be natural to put something like "attacking here will start war with %countryname%, do you wish to proceed?" alert, like in Civilization games? Or "moving your forces here will be seen as infringement upon %countryname% borders, do you continue?". All I want about the feature is just this.

Also total wars were rather unheard of in the time frame of EU3.
Which doesn't make them impossible (or implausible).

Enemy armies with 0 morale are wiped when encountering your forces, one of the best ways to achieve this is to surround them to control their movement. I am not sure how much more annihilation you need?
I need annihilation as a result of local operations, not global strategy. As in chasing the retreating defeated infantry with cavalry squadrons to round up and then utterly destroy them before they run into another army of mine. Like, "you lost and you want to run? not gonna happen". I don't ask for this to happen automatically, I ask only to lessen the role of chance, so a 5k foot army won't run away from 20k cavalries.

Terra Incognita in game terms doesn't mean that it cannot be accessed by group of explorers, it just means that it is impossible to perform game relevant actions there, i. e. the province cannot sustain settlements of a relevant scale and doesn't allow the crossing of sizeable forces.
But it's entirely possible to make some of those territories passable within the EU3 timeframe. Granted, it means years and decades of development and tons of ducats, but why mark it impossible and have players have such an annoying eyesore they can't remove no matter what?
 

spyroware1

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When it comes to war the most horrible mechanic is that the AI automatically recruits everything it can in all of its provinces when you declare war/kill its old stacks. The human can't do this. I mean, you can do it.. but it's so bloody tedious I never do it. So I only declare war when I can obliterate the enemy, which sucks cause it makes war boring. If you want to request a new mechanic fixing that would be better IMO.
 

bleakie

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I need annihilation as a result of local operations, not global strategy. As in chasing the retreating defeated infantry with cavalry squadrons to round up and then utterly destroy them before they run into another army of mine. Like, "you lost and you want to run? not gonna happen". I don't ask for this to happen automatically, I ask only to lessen the role of chance, so a 5k foot army won't run away from 20k cavalries.

What you have asked in already in the game. If you can outnumber your enemy by 10:1 or higher, the enemy is immediately annihilated. When you manage to converge 2 of your stacks to 1 of your enemy's, there is also a decent chance for annihilation. As for your example of 5k infantry vs 20k cavalry, such an escape is not that implausible if you take the terrain into account -- mountains and dense forests are good cover for the fleeing infantry.
 

Kimberly

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I don't know whether this has been fixed yet, but I have a very minor request about something that annoyed me while modding Europa Universalis III and Hearts of Iron III: change the internal command to make provinces switch hands to cede_province, rather than secede_province. Secession means withdrawing or breaking away from an organization, alliance or union, the way a revolting nation might secede from its conqueror or the Confederate States tried to secede from the Union. Cession means surrendering or transferring territory. Mistakes like these are understandable from a Swedish company, but nevertheless unprofessional.

If I may weigh in on the permanent terra incognita debate, perhaps each piece of terra incognita could have an associated decision (costing lots of gold) and random event (with a high MTTH) for exploration, revealing the territory (which would remain uninhabitable) and granting large amounts of prestige plus a global announcement to the first successful explorer?
 

Pitt The Elder

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Might be. Care to elaborate?

There's not a whole lot to elaborate on. Although Rome had withdrawn from the scene, and no particularly large and effective polities had moved in to fill the gaps, this did not mean a collapse in technological knowledge or progress. It did mean that things got a whole lot less conducive to trade.

First, I've corrected myself, picking 1935-1940 period. While "5 years of the most tumultuous war in human history" just started at the end of this timeline, in 1939.
Second. Strategic bombers, heavy tanks and diesel engines were not just invented, but mass-produced (or, in case of strategic bombers, ready for mass production) years before WW2, not during. For example, the T-35 tank (designed in 1932, mass produced in 1933-1939; while the peak of production was reached in 1936) for heavy tanks. Diesel engines also were mass-produced, look up Mercedes-Benz 260D and Citroёn Rosalie Familiale 11UD (both were produced in 1933-1939); also, 500hp W2 tank diesel (mass production started in 1938). Third, strategic bomber TB-7 (aka Pe-8 or ANT-42) was designed in 1934-1938; in 1938, it was ready for mass production. The sole reason it wasn't mass produced is that USSR command didn't see the need for them in any forseeable future, but the production lines were there, ready to bake the cakes immediately after the command has been given.

Alright, you've slid the goal posts from the most tumultuous war in human history to the period where everybody was gearing up for what they suspected would be the most tumultuous war in human history. To address the meat of your argument, I'm not sure what part of that constitutes actual technological progress. The Diesel Engine was invented in 1893, and in wide use before 1900. Diesel engines had been used in ships and submarines on both sides during the First World War. Internal combustion engines - admittedly not diesels - had powered the first tanks, which were pretty damned heavy. The T-35 was a god awful tank. Barely worked. More of them were lost due to mechanical failure than to enemy action. Don't know if you'd call that progress. That, and it's design was completed in 1932, which is outside the 1935-1940 window you chose. Strategic bombing had also been done during the First World War, just not very effectively. The theory behind it was much further developed during the 20's, but then most of that theory turned out to be wrong.

I didn't. But if you state the requirements, I will dig up periods and then ask you to find something similar in scale done in similar timeframe. What will it be? Computers? Space industry? Lasers? Something else?

Let's go with 'something else'. And to make it more interesting, I'll let you pick windows from 1800-1900. That should allow us to see the scale factor you've cooked up in action, and be at least close to the time period of the game we're talking about. The world of the European Early Modern Period was pretty different from the world of today after all. Also, I'd like so hear some evidence that this was state sourced. Certainly your idea of staged mobilizations for 5 years prior to a conflict makes sense if we're talking about Second World War, but does it also apply in the Early Modern Period?

(Spoiler Alert: it doesn't.)

Please specify. Was was that gross simplification I made? That both Attila and Napoleon razed cities? Or that ultimatums were issued (granted, I oversimplified ultimatums themselves, but, I think, gameplay-wise it's not that gross)?

The simplification you made originally was saying Russian forces had razed Moscow to deny supplies to Napoleon. While certainly they had tried to evacuate the city and remove as much useful materiel as possible, and certain buildings to be demolished, neither of those things actually started the fire. It's also not clear that the city was razed intentionally. It's quite possible it was accidentally set alight by retreating Russians, or accidentally set alight by French forces lighting fires to stay warm. The historical record wasn't clear. Of course, if we assume the Russians did burn it down, it doesn't change much. Had the city been kept intact, it wouldn't have changed the fact that Napoleon was trapped in the middle of Russia, surrounded by hostile forces, and unable to resupply. Your telling also ignores the multitude of actions fought by the Russians to keep the retreating French on the specific route they had invaded along, thus forcing them to retreat through an area already stripped of it's supplies. And that sort of scorched earth razing can already be done in EU3!

Then, the blatantly false claim you made was that Attila had raised Rome to deny the Romans their capital and avoid slowing his army. There's all sort of problems with that, namely that Attila never captured Rome in the first place; he retreated immediately after reaching the city due to a lack of supplies that was deliberately caused by neither side; and Rome wasn't even the capital of the Empire at that point, not even in the West.

I don't even know that you gave examples of ultimatums. You just said they were a thing and then moved on.

And I don't ask for anything more.
"It could have been done, therefore let the player try it".

Sure, but the options available must remain sane. It's like saying the Nazi's could have had nuclear bombs if they had not run all the scientists out of town. That might be the case, but then they wouldn't have been the Nazi's now would they? I don't think EU needs any nonsensical Harry Turtledove type style "Alt-History".

Then, if it could have been done, why does only the player get to try? I think the AI should always gang up on the human player and issue ultimatums that they stop playing. After all, it could have happened, therefore it should happen.

Where did that come from?

The Simpsons. I'm mocking you.
 

Ashantai

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I'm thinking though that you should have grades of wilderness. The Sahara or Central Australia should be almost unusable and have no redeeming feature other than to paint the map your colour.

Others like the Mid West of America were perfectly habitable...just outside of this period, so shouldn't be quite so forbidding.
 

unmerged(149861)

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There's not a whole lot to elaborate on. Although Rome had withdrawn from the scene, and no particularly large and effective polities had moved in to fill the gaps, this did not mean a collapse in technological knowledge or progress. It did mean that things got a whole lot less conducive to trade.



Alright, you've slid the goal posts from the most tumultuous war in human history to the period where everybody was gearing up for what they suspected would be the most tumultuous war in human history. To address the meat of your argument, I'm not sure what part of that constitutes actual technological progress. The Diesel Engine was invented in 1893, and in wide use before 1900. Diesel engines had been used in ships and submarines on both sides during the First World War. Internal combustion engines - admittedly not diesels - had powered the first tanks, which were pretty damned heavy. The T-35 was a god awful tank. Barely worked. More of them were lost due to mechanical failure than to enemy action. Don't know if you'd call that progress. That, and it's design was completed in 1932, which is outside the 1935-1940 window you chose. Strategic bombing had also been done during the First World War, just not very effectively. The theory behind it was much further developed during the 20's, but then most of that theory turned out to be wrong.



*SNIP*

The Simpsons. I'm mocking you.

Technological development is never constant. It took humans a couple hundred years to realize that horses were more usefull than slave labour, a little less longer to realize the usefullness of horses in warfare, and look how long it took to replace them with something better.
 

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Hi! I don't know if it has ever been mentioned before but I would love to be implemented a feature which shows you the actual size of each of provinces and of each of the countries in square km.
If you like the idea please do support it!
Cheers.
 

Chieron

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But his requests are so hilarious, it's fun to see, how he tries to defend them.
Seriously, none of them make too much sense in the EU-context.
1) Unneeded, as the declaration itself is only formality. Attacking without declaration, thus giving a BorderFriction CB isn't the same as a no-CB declaration, and in a bad way: the actual defender can not call defensive allies (but the aggressor can), nothing prevents abuse in truce periods. Better to imagine the declaration being made with a flaming arrow.. If you want stuff to be more raid-like, the AIs should be less stubborn.
2) You can eradicate them either by great advantage in numbers or zero-morale routs. Complete massacrations were rare in the period, and losing your entire army could too easily be bad for gameplay. If your strategy is annihilation (as you requested), at least you should get higher casulty rates yourself. You are fighting in an inefficient way, after all. A battered army, useless until morale recovers, sucking up money and manpower while replenishing could hurt your opponent even more.
3) Too rare in the period, too many other factors ignored (at least, nobody guarantees that you caught their whole family). Also, it's quite barbaric, in a feudal context you'd end up being at war with anyone close by.
4) Scorching the Land is supposed to be just this. Razing opponent's provinces/cities would be interesting, yet probably too easy again to abuse. Resettle(rebuild province from colony level) isn't going to work in a non-colonial context.
5) Wasteland should stay wasteland, those provinces are rubbish and largely uninhabitable in that time period. Being able to traverse them, albeit with huge attrittion, would be okay-ish. Hower, no sensible power would do so normally. Thus, it's better to remove the ability to cross the desert, lest the AIs get stupid ideas.
 

merserm

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Compiled mainly from EU3 and CK2:

1. You cannot attack your neighbouring countries without the official declaration of war.
2. You can only defeat enemy armies, but never destroy them, unless they run into you.
3. You cannot make an ultimatum, the war is measured purely by warscore.
- ultimatums
- executions
- policy of terror
4. No razing.
- razing and rebuilding of cities
5. PTI, commonly known as Permanent Terra Incognita.
- absence of PTI

1. Exists. You can declare war and begin your sneak attack at full morale while the AI has to wait months.
2. Inaccurate. It's actually not hard to wipe out enemy stacks.
3. I'd be fine with these additions so long as they were balanced with realistic results. Huge Reputation hits, huge revolt risk in usurped territories, large chance of coalition instantly formed against you (to include unallied countries), generals refusing to particpate and flipping your army over to the target country. A concern is that the player gets strong enough that they simply don't care about what other countries think of them, so if you play as a tyrant you should expect internal events as well, upto and perhaps including civil war.
4. Razing ground, and looted provinces already exist. Expanding this to include burning of buildings after capturing a province seems reasonable, but again should be balanced with extreme negative consequences as suggested in item #3.
3-4. For both options, if available to the player it should be an option the AI will do to the player as well. It might actually be fun to have a few tyrannical AI's running around irrationally threating the players existence?

5. I don't care if it's impassible or just 0 tax, 0 supply limit provinces.

New
6. Rebels Burning buildings? If Peasant Rebels succeed in taking a city, perhaps they should have a chance to burn down the Tax Collector building? Or religious rebels may have a chance to burn down the local Church/Cathedral? Etc. Perhaps the rebels would disperse, after this destructive venting? It would give rebels a little more bite to negate your time and money spent developing.
 

Jomini

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The real problem with making useless provinces is that the AI will not know how to use them. Let's say you have a 50% attrition rate 0 supply limit province in the Sahara. Great I eat the attrition because I'm a land power who transported troops to Mali and 50% casualties are better than trying to build enough ships to land on the North African coast against a coalition of naval powers. The AI will have scads of difficulty seeing this option and even harder times taking care of it.

On the flip side, if we aren't careful, the AI will say, hmm his provinces in Mali are really rich ... and there is this unguarded path there. Worse, if I can "lose" provinces in a war to a third party to block off the AI's only access to Mali outside of the Saharan death march ... well I see an easy way to drain 50% of the AI's manpower. AIs are already terrible at efficient pathing of armies, this will only make it less likely for the AI to be a competent challenge just so we can have pretty maps with land you still can't push an infantry army through (literally, there are parts of the Sahara where the water weight you need to carry is prohibitive without mechanized support, Uncle Sam can only fight there if the troops go airborne).

Non-crossable terrain should be any territory which was inhospitable for an organized regiment of men to cross and maintain discipline. This does include the American mountain west as even though there was settlement of places like Salt Lake City, you still had major problems getting military units through in the mid 1800s.
 

LolCakeLazors

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You know what, screw the rules. Let me have my Golden Horde fully equipped with cars and machine guns shooting up the entire continent of Asia. As he said, it's about making history.