Flavor (and events?) for Cultural Unions

[Ciccillo Rre]

We all know that one of the most fun experiences in playing EU3 (or V2, or CK2) is to create (a)historical but to some extent plausible unions like Germany, Italy (or in EU3, their 'upgraded' versions the HRE and the KoG) or the extra Empires in CK2.

I appreciate the decision to include DHEs in EU4 to give more direction as well as historical flavor to the game. And I think that the recently posted and discussed 'tier list' is well tought-out and makes a lot of sense.

However, does it mean that if, say, I create Italy as Milan I would lose its extra tier-3 DHEs and flavor? And what would I get instead for playing such a rich and potentially powerful country as a unified Italy in the Renaissance?

I wouldn't mind some sort of fantasy yet plausible flavor events and decisions for realistic-ahistorical unions. I really hope these issues will be addressed by the team.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

Hopefully it will be hard to become Italy very early in the game.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Hopefully it will be hard to become Italy very early in the game.

Hopefully the coalitions within the peninsula will make it harder, indeed.

A reason more to give players a proper reward!

 

[Eh up me duck]

Hopefully it will be hard to become Italy very early in the game.

It's not exactly "easy" in eu3 early game, especially if Austria decides they don't like you.

 

[Avrelianvs]

This can be solved with DHEs that can be carried on into the cultural union. For example why not have the DHEs you'd have as Milan if you have formed Italy starting with Milan? The issues would be pretty much the same. You surely would have the same DHEs if you have made a similar expansion (as far as nr. of provinces goes), but not formed the union.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

This can be solved with DHEs that can be carried on into the cultural union. For example why not have the DHEs you'd have as Milan if you have formed Italy starting with Milan? The issues would be pretty much the same. You surely would have the same DHEs if you have made a similar expansion (as far as nr. of provinces goes), but not formed the union.

Hopefully this will be the case. But what about Germany and the HRE? I doubt we want them to have the same DHEs and decisions as Austria.

 

[unmerged(205148)]

However, does it mean that if, say, I create Italy as Milan I would lose its extra tier-3 DHEs and flavor? And what would I get instead for playing such a rich and potentially powerful country as a unified Italy in the Renaissance?

A legitimate concern with the DHE's, IMO. That's why I am for enabling some of them for cultural unions and such, if the conditions are right. It would also reduce gamey tactics to evade "bad" DHE's.

 

[Jia Xu]

A legitimate concern with the DHE's, IMO. That's why I am for enabling some of them for cultural unions and such, if the conditions are right. It would also reduce gamey tactics to evade "bad" DHE's.

I believe it's the case that the localization for DHE's are written specifically for a single state. You could probably enable Milan's events for Italy, but the localization would still say Milan, I think.

Italy is probably not the best example. EU3's Italy was Napoleonic Italy. I don't think it exists in the game as some grand national union like Great Britain does. I think it's more of a fun client state like Westphalia, or Belgium.

 

[unmerged(205148)]

I believe it's the case that the localization for DHE's are written specifically for a single state. You could probably enable Milan's events for Italy, but the localization would still say Milan, I think.

It's possible for an event to be written so that it would mention the actual country.

I don't think it exists in the game as some grand national union like Great Britain does.

It doesn't exist in history files like a national union, but it's possible to form it just like it's possible to form GB.

 

[Avrelianvs]

But what about Germany and the HRE? I doubt we want them to have the same DHEs and decisions as Austria.

A legit concern, but easely solved, IMO. I hope you can centralize HRE transfoming it into a real Empire with diplomatic intervention, but in that case you'd have DHEs specific to an Empire like that: formed from a loose federation during a long process. If you have broken off from HRE and have created a Kingdom of Germany, then the DHEs should be of the founding state: let's say Brandenburg, for example.

 

[Avrelianvs]

Italy is probably not the best example. EU3's Italy was Napoleonic Italy. I don't think it exists in the game as some grand national union like Great Britain does. I think it's more of a fun client state like Westphalia, or Belgium.

I'd like to point out that populations of Great Britain don't share the same culture, while Italy's do (with regional differences, of course). So a cultural union of Italy is logical, but a similar thing for Great Britain would be ridiculous. Also, the fact that Italy was formed for the first time in Napoleonic era, doesn't mean that there wasn't a unification movement before that: quite the opposite instead. Napoleon formed Italy to please Italian patriots that wanted a cultural union. Historicaly speaking, Italy is very plausible if you manage to conquer the key provinces and gain a core in them.

I'd like also the opportunity to form vassals that reflect the cultural unions. For example if France conquer the core provinces of Italy, I'd like to be able to form the vassal Kingdom of Italy, or Duchy.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

DHEs are based on historical events not ahistorical ones, and are tag specific, so almost for sure they won't be carried over after forming new country.

Another reason why making them looks like a massive waste of time and resources by paradox, unless making ahistorical style of play unappealing as compared to replaying history is the goal.

 

[unmerged(205148)]

DHEs are based on historical events not ahistorical ones, and are tag specific, so almost for sure they won't be carried over after forming new country.

It doesn't make much sense, however, for a Milan-eligible-for-forming-Italy to receive the event, but for an actual Italy-formed-from-Milan to not receive them.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

It doesn't make much sense, however, for a Milan-eligible-for-forming-Italy to receive the event, but for an actual Italy-formed-from-Milan to not receive them.

Why? Both countries would be totally different entities, with different geopolitical standing, different ruling elites, different socio-economic situation, etc. It would make little sense for historical event that happened in an Italian city state, to happen in exactly the same way in totally altered reality of unified Italy.

 

[unmerged(205148)]

If Milan can enact the "Form Italy" decision it's definitely not a city state at that point

 

[unmerged(63836)]

If Milan can enact the "Form Italy" decision it's definitely not a city state at that point

Yeah - you know what I mean. Historical events for Milan are written for OPM historical Milan, not an alternate history Milan. DHEs for Poland are written for decentralised, noble-monarchy style Poland in union with Lithuania, not for centralised, Lithuania-less protestant Poland. DHEs for Russia are written for Muscovy formed aggressive despotic monarchy, not for Novgorod created innovative semi-republic. DHEs for Denmark are written for declining Scandinavian kingdom, not for a monarchy that transformed Kalmar Union into unified northern power. etc.

I still can't understand what they were thinking to return to the idea of historical events.

 

[unmerged(205148)]

Well, I guess it's still possible for some flavor events to fire regardless of the situation.

 

[Avrelianvs]

Both countries would be totally different entities, with different geopolitical standing, different ruling elites, different socio-economic situation, etc. It would make little sense for historical event that happened in an Italian city state, to happen in exactly the same way in totally altered reality of unified Italy.

I think you're wrong there: why Milan and an Italy formed by Milan would have different geopolitical standing, ruiling elites etc.?! When Italy formed, in 1861, it was very much under the influece of the Kingdom of Sardinia, the king, the prime minister and almost all the ruling elite were from that kingdom. The elite of little states of the north that elected to be part of the kingdom, becam provincial elite or were removed from power. The states that resisted, the Papal State and the Kingdom of Two Sicilies, were outright invaded, and the elite there ended up with almost no representation at the national level. The Vatican for example acknowledged the Kingdom of Italy only during Mussolini dictatorship after he made them some concessions (I Patti Lateranensi), 80 years after the formation of Italy. The Kingdom of Italy was very much the political continuation of the KoS, just with a different name.

 

[Dragassa]

Since this thread is about flavor and historical events and after reading the above posts i have the following quetrion for the Devs. Are the Flavor and DHE events going to be fixed decision events or are they going to have choices one can make when the event pop up during the game?
I personally prefer choices.
Yes I do like the DHE and plenty of decisions with choices that are not generic to every country be it OPM or the major powers indicated in the tiers thread.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

I think you're wrong there: why Milan and an Italy formed by Milan would have different geopolitical standing, ruiling elites etc.?!

Plenty of ways. First of all, instead of being one of the minor states of balkanised Italy, Milan would be one of the many provinces of big country with totally different foreign policy, and likely capital of Rome. Thus city of Milan and Lombardy would develop very differently than historically. There are other things, like type of government, types of ruling classes, religion. What if such Italy would go protestant, be involved in many religious wars, and go through the period of internal infighting, resulting in conservative Calvinist religion being predominant? It would be totally different Italy in which events for smallish Catholic Milan would make no sense. What if such Italy becomes despotic monarchy with strong militaristic aristocratic ruling class? Events written for city states with strong burgher class/merchants/republican traditions would make no sense at all. Game can progress in plenty of different ways, all of which would make events based on history totally out of place.