Why does England not use the three Plantagenet lions as its flag after the reign of Henry II? Just curious if it is working as intended or not.
Flag of England
- Thread starter Rorgloin
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I'm a little curious about this also. Given that the flag of a country can change based on the culture overseeing it then it may be pleasant to see the Saxon Dragon for Anglo-Saxons, the three Plantagenet lions for Normans and the Cross of Saint George for the English.
I agree about the culture change, though I would implement the Lions for the English culture as well, seeing as the Plantagenet kings are treated as English culture in the game. While they don't exactly fit the Norman kings, I'm not sure what you'd give them instead.
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The engine supports the name of a title automatically changing depending upon its holder's cultures. It does not natively support the flag of a title changing on the basis of the culture of the holder. That has to be done through history commands or by special events (which, if this were done for every flag that's changed over history, would be an overwhelmingly slow amount of events constantly checking the status of various titles' current holders, but could theoretically be done as a one-off for England).
Shouldn't the strain on processor be neglible if the events were to be fired by on_action?
Firing it from a yearly pulse would amount to 17x fewer evaluations per game day. Negligible? No. There are thousands of potential titles with special flag rules and thousands of characters that might be holding them. Point is, it's not tenable or any sort of automatic feature like cultural dynamic title naming, but some special cases could maybe be coded if they made a big enough difference (slippery slope).
I think that England counts as important enough to merit an exception if anywhere does, seeing that it is a powerful kingdom which exists in every start except for 867 and was historically a powerful force in medieval Europe. I would also assume that it is a kingdom often played as/in or encountered frequently by players in France.
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one solution could be to use random flags for every religion, coupled or not with use_dynasty_coa like muslim do. this way it would be automatic, but i doubt the community would be ready to accept such change.
I don't think that random flags are a good idea, since European medieval heraldry was so highly developed and distinctive. Obviously it won't be possible to make it perfectly accurate, but for certain important crests I should think exceptions should be noted. Especially as, in the case of England, the Plantagenets held the crown for the majority of the time covered by the game and the three Plantagenet lions are highly distinctive.
using dynastic coa as title flag means we can assign one unique and distinct to each defined dynasty.
IMHO that wouldn't solve everything. Certain titles did change hands, but after heraldry was well established, they often adopted the coat of arms of their now most prestigious title. A coat of arms, which often was held by a previous dynasty.
Also the current coat of arms is used to accommodate Pre-Norman conquest England, but IMHO isn't ideal for Post-Norman conquest England. Perhaps (IMHO) changing the English royal coat of arms based on the holder's culture and start date should be considered.
yes, some were quite fix when some don't (highest rank titles, ecclesiatical ones).
the engine really lacks flexibility for sure.
the engine really lacks flexibility for sure.
CK2+ has two different flags for Saxon and Norman England, I would like this aswell for HIP.
it will, with next SWMH update since such change is in history files. history files is SWMH's scope 
Any other high-profile titles that you guys can think of that might switch CoA under certain circumstances (doesn't have to always be culture)? I'm considering doing this for high-profile titles in EMF now, as I know that I'm best-suited to doing it as efficiently as possible (EMF already monitors whenever titles change hands, e.g.), but I'd obviously need some help from, say, Arko (interested?) or Aasmul in actually securing the appropriate CoA gfx as well as help from the group in general in determining what other high-profile cases in CoA history are like this.
it will, with next SWMH update since such change is in history files. history files is SWMH's scope
Just that one change will make it all better because I can't stand looking at William with the Saxon shield, it looks ridiculous.
@ zijistark: EMF is undoubtedly the best option to do this dynamically in game. For SWMH it would be more about adjusting certain history files, to have the best possible CoA's (flags) at each game start.
Just confirming since I personally know very little about specific CoA history. So our first (and perhaps only, who knows) dynamic CoA rule would be:
- Whenever a Saxon controls England, use the Saxon dragon flag.
- Whenever a Norman controls England or the controlling dynasty is Plantaganet, use the Plantaganet 'three lions' flag.
- Whenever an English character controls England (and isn't a Plantaganet), use the Cross of St. George flag.
- When a character that doesn't meet any of the above holds England, do what? Use the Cross of St. George?
Do we have all 3 art assets already? Arko, Aasmul? I can take care of the rest once I get the graphics. The code will also run in the 'Adapting History' phase so that SWMH/vanilla doesn't have to worry about setting the right CoA for the right start dates. Flag change will be instantaneous whenever one of the above conditions changes.
EDIT: Looks like we've got all 3 flags ready now. I'll use the vanilla Plantaganet lions flag, the SWMH Saxon dragon flag, and Aasmul just whipped up a quick Cross of St. George for me.
- Whenever a Saxon controls England, use the Saxon dragon flag.
- Whenever a Norman controls England or the controlling dynasty is Plantaganet, use the Plantaganet 'three lions' flag.
- Whenever an English character controls England (and isn't a Plantaganet), use the Cross of St. George flag.
- When a character that doesn't meet any of the above holds England, do what? Use the Cross of St. George?
Do we have all 3 art assets already? Arko, Aasmul? I can take care of the rest once I get the graphics. The code will also run in the 'Adapting History' phase so that SWMH/vanilla doesn't have to worry about setting the right CoA for the right start dates. Flag change will be instantaneous whenever one of the above conditions changes.
EDIT: Looks like we've got all 3 flags ready now. I'll use the vanilla Plantaganet lions flag, the SWMH Saxon dragon flag, and Aasmul just whipped up a quick Cross of St. George for me.
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Aragon CoA have the same problem. As I said in the Arko's thread:
Another example could be that the shield of the Kingdom of Aragon changed to shield of dynasty "de Barcelona", if this dynasty ruled the kingdom.
to
K, great, thanks for adding to the list. I can do Aragon too, and that one's a pretty simple case. I'll just need to get the de Barcelona pattern/colors/number of stripes drawn on a 128x128 with the proper center offset. If anybody feels like doing that for me, then swell, because you'd probably get it whipped into shape 10x faster than I. [E.g., I don't know what the proper center offset for christian CoA is. I know that it exists and is small, but yeah.]