Fixing the British Empire's IC distribution

[el freako]

It seems to me that the IC's for the Imperial Territories and Dominon has been bumped up with detriment to the 'home islands'.

There are too many IC's allocated to India (Celon especially!) and Malaya and all those specks in the ocean (like the Falklands and Diego Garcia) and not enough in Britian itself.
And as for the dominon countries their IC's are more than double what they should be (maybe that's why they seem more powerful in the game than they did in real life).

Using Germany's 1936 IC total of 315 as a base here is the current and (historical) IC's of various areas of the British Empire.

British Isles 188 (239)
Canada 92 (36)
Australia 42 (22)
New Zealand 25 (5)
South Africa 32 (16)
Egypt & Transjordan 6 (7)
India 67 (49)
Malaya 11 (4)

(source for industrialization levels: Bairoch's "International Industrialization Levels 1750-1980")

Losing Malaya and India would not have hurt British Industrial capacity as much as the game suggests (of course the loss of malayan rubber is another matter).

Now this could either be handled by adjusting the province.csv (bad, as it will effect non CORE games) or by a 'silent' event on 1 Jan 1936.

 

[jdrou]

Originally posted by el freako

Now this could either be handled by adjusting the province.csv (bad, as it will effect non CORE games) or by a 'silent' event on 1 Jan 1936.

Actually the best way to do it is set the province values in the scenario file:

province = { id = 116 ic = 30 maxic = 30 }

for example.
Note this is outside the country definitions.

 

[el freako]

Yup I missed that

 

[McNaughton]

The problem that I see is that this does not represent industrial production during the war. Canada outproduced Italy in Tanks, Aircraft and total tonnage of ships produced. By the end of WW2, Canada had the 3rd largest navy in the world (based on tonnage). Canada was heavily industrialized when you compare it to other minor states, and even some major states (notably Italy). I don't think that the industry for Canada is far off from the original HoI rating. Possibly we might do something like is planned for US industry, by gradually increasing it due to war, as Industry did drastically increase from 1939 on. Rating Industry based on 1936 numbers will just weaken some nations too much, as most experienced immense increases after war was declared (due to government contracts and heavy requirements for equipment).

 

[el freako]

Yes I wouldn't want to weaken the dominions too much (historical accuracy comes second to playability).

However that should not stop us from moving IC's from Malaya, India and stupid places like the Falklands and Diego Garcia to the UK.

 

[Steel]

Did you account for the less than ideal efficiency of most overseas holdings?

 

[el freako]

Originally posted by Steel
Did you account for the less than ideal efficiency of most overseas holdings?

Not exactly sure what you mean by this.

Are you referring to lower productivity outside the UK?


Here is my proposal:


#Adjusted IC's from India, Malaya and 'island specks' to UK

province = { id = 414 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Port Stanley
province = { id = 461 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Ascension
province = { id = 469 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# St Helena
province = { id = 2200 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Diego Garcia
province = { id = 1332 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Seychelles
province = { id = 1752 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Port Blair
province = { id = 2129 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# New Hebridies
province = { id = 2119 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# South Solomon Islands
province = { id = 50 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Ellis Islands
province = { id = 40 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Gilbert Islands
province = { id = 1765 ic = 1 maxic = 1 }# Kuala Lumpa
province = { id = 1766 ic = 2 maxic = 2 }# Singapore
province = { id = 1717 ic = 1 maxic = 1 }# Hong Kong
province = { id = 1459 ic = 6 maxic = 6 }# Bombay
province = { id = 1446 ic = 6 maxic = 6 }# Delhi
province = { id = 1495 ic = 1 maxic = 1 }# Luknow
province = { id = 1464 ic = 3 maxic = 3 }# Hyderabad
province = { id = 1480 ic = 4 maxic = 4 }# Colombo
province = { id = 1497 ic = 2 maxic = 2 }# Jabalpur
province = { id = 1496 ic = 1 maxic = 1 }# Vishakhapatnam
province = { id = 1498 ic = 6 maxic = 6 }# Patna
province = { id = 482 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Scapa Flow
province = { id = 486 ic = 13 maxic = 13 }# Glasgow
province = { id = 487 ic = 10 maxic = 10 }# Edinburgh
province = { id = 488 ic = 15 maxic = 15 }# Newcastle
province = { id = 490 ic = 17 maxic = 17 }# Sheffield
province = { id = 491 ic = 10 maxic = 10 }# Cardiff
province = { id = 493 ic = 7 maxic = 7 }# Belfast
province = { id = 498 ic = 17 maxic = 17 }# Coventry
province = { id = 499 ic = 29 maxic = 29 }# London
province = { id = 500 ic = 13 maxic = 13 }# Bristol
province = { id = 502 ic = 13 maxic = 13 }# Southampton
province = { id = 503 ic = 13 maxic = 13 }# Portsmouth
province = { id = 2121 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# KiraKira
province = { id = 1091 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Sidi Barini
province = { id = 1206 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# El Arish
province = { id = 1100 ic = 1 maxic = 1 }# Port Said

 

[brandnew70x7]

I dont think we need specific threads for everything, if this is about the British empire, it should probably go in the British section here.

 

[el freako]

Sorry, you're right - newbie error

 

[brandnew70x7]

Its no problem, just check where a thread might belong before posting.

 

[Steel]

Originally posted by el freako
Not exactly sure what you mean by this.

Are you referring to lower productivity outside the UK?

Yes. Specifically, I'm referring to a change that was introduced in the 1.03 patch :

- Most colonies and occupied territories in the scenarios are no longer considered "national" provinces. The notable exception is India for the UK. The affected countries have been compensated with corresponding IC raises in home provinces.

This means that the IC contribution of those areas will be only 33% of the industrial points there.

What's the bottom line on your proposed changes, how many more/less IC on scenario start? How many provinces were there will no longer be a chance of building forts, AA, infra and IC?

 

[el freako]

Originally posted by Steel
Yes. Specifically, I'm referring to a change that was introduced in the 1.03 patch :



This means that the IC contribution of those areas will be only 33% of the industrial points there.

What's the bottom line on your proposed changes, how many more/less IC on scenario start? How many provinces were there will no longer be a chance of building forts, AA, infra and IC?

Net IC change for UK = 0

Change for British Isles +42
Change for India - 18
Change for Malaya & Hong Kong -12
Change in rest of world -12

Provinces that now become 'unimprovable' (i.e. you can no longer build forts, AA, infra and IC there):

Port Stanley, Ascension, St Helena, Diego Garcia, Seycelles, Port Blair, New Hebridies, South Solomon Islands, Ellice Islands, Gilbet Islands, Siddi Barini, KiraKira and Scapa Flow

Provinces that now become 'improvable' (i.e. you can now build forts, AA, infra and IC there):

Port Said

 

[unmerged(2826)]

I think India should become a Uk puppet at the start of the game; it shoul hold it's IC distribution but UK shoul be given extra IC in it's home provinces to cover this loss. Reasons are that it would benefit the Uk in defending Egypt and that Burma would also be defended better. The Indian Viceroy also had a great amount of independence at the time; I think a puppet status would reflect this.

 

[Generalisimo]

what does the "maxic" ?
i have tested this way of adding changes, and the "reducing changes" were only temporarily, have you checked that?
also, check what Steel said, this was changed, so UK will not gain a lot from far away provinces

 

[jdrou]

Originally posted by Generalisimo
what does the "maxic" ?
i have tested this way of adding changes, and the "reducing changes" were only temporarily, have you checked that?
also, check what Steel said, this was changed, so UK will not gain a lot from far away provinces

I think if you increase maxic but not ic or reduce ic but not maxic then province ICs will start at ic and gradually increase until they reach maxic. Similarly with infra/maxinfra.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by jdrou
I think if you increase maxic but not ic or reduce ic but not maxic then province ICs will start at ic and gradually increase until they reach maxic. Similarly with infra/maxinfra.

well, good to know, i didn't know that maxic event existed....

 

[jdrou]

Originally posted by Generalisimo
well, good to know, i didn't know that maxic event existed....

Unfortunately I don't think it's an event command, just a parameter which can be set in scenario files and savegame files (which are almost identical).
Much of what I know about the internal stuff of EU2/HoI comes from browsing through the savegame files.

 

[Steel]

-24 industry points in rest of world and +24 in home isles would mean 8 IC lost, 24 gained, net +16 IC.

 

[el freako]

Yup, you're right - I missed the 'lower productivity' of non-national provinces.

However India is still overrepresented and 'national' provinces like the Falklands and St Helena are still pretty absurd with IC's in them (both places had less than 5,000 people living there, making their implicit IC output per person 50 times higher than Britian itself).

Here is my revised proposal:

province = { id = 414 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Port Stanley
province = { id = 461 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Ascension
province = { id = 469 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# St Helena
province = { id = 2200 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Diego Garcia
province = { id = 1332 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Seychelles
province = { id = 1752 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Port Blair
province = { id = 2129 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# New Hebridies
province = { id = 2119 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# South Solomon Islands
province = { id = 50 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Ellis Islands
province = { id = 40 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Gilbert Islands
province = { id = 2121 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# KiraKira
province = { id = 1765 ic = 1 maxic = 1 }# Kuala Lumpa
province = { id = 1766 ic = 2 maxic = 2 }# Singapore
province = { id = 1717 ic = 2 maxic = 2 }# Hong Kong
province = { id = 1459 ic = 5 maxic = 5 }# Bombay
province = { id = 1446 ic = 5 maxic = 5 }# Delhi
province = { id = 1495 ic = 1 maxic = 1 }# Luknow
province = { id = 1464 ic = 3 maxic = 3 }# Hyderabad
province = { id = 1480 ic = 4 maxic = 4 }# Colombo
province = { id = 1497 ic = 2 maxic = 2 }# Jabalpur
province = { id = 1496 ic = 1 maxic = 1 }# Vishakhapatnam
province = { id = 1498 ic = 6 maxic = 6 }# Patna
province = { id = 1585 ic = 2 maxic = 2 }# Dacca
province = { id = 1588 ic = 2 maxic = 2 }# Mandalay
province = { id = 222 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Bermuda
province = { id = 225 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Bahamas
province = { id = 482 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Scapa Flow
province = { id = 486 ic = 13 maxic = 13 }# Glasgow
province = { id = 487 ic = 9 maxic = 9 }# Edinburgh
province = { id = 488 ic = 13 maxic = 13 }# Newcastle
province = { id = 490 ic = 13 maxic = 13 }# Sheffield
province = { id = 491 ic = 11 maxic = 11 }# Cardiff
province = { id = 498 ic = 15 maxic = 15 }# Coventry
province = { id = 499 ic = 29 maxic = 29 }# London
province = { id = 500 ic = 13 maxic = 12 }# Bristol
province = { id = 502 ic = 13 maxic = 13 }# Southampton
province = { id = 503 ic = 13 maxic = 13 }# Portsmouth
province = { id = 1091 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# Sidi Barini
province = { id = 1206 ic = 0 maxic = 0 }# El Arish
province = { id = 1100 ic = 1 maxic = 1 }# Port Said

Net IC change for UK = 0
British Isles + 32
India -24 *
Other 'National' Provinces -2
Rest of World -18 (which equals -6)

*this includes all the provinces that Paradox counts as India - I missed some before



Whilst doing this a thought occured to me - is it possible in the AI files (not having delved into these much) to make the AI extremely likely to improve the IC of it's national provinces.
If so it could be used to accurately simulate the industrial recovery of the dominions (and, for that matter the United States as well) in 1936-39 whilst also having the additional benefit of making it much harder for them to ahistorically build up forces and plough IC into research (as, whist the IC of provinces is being upgraded it lowers that which is available now).
Event's could be used to trigger a change from an 'industial buildup' AI to a more normal one - maybe the Anchluss or Munich conference for the Dominions and the fall of Paris to the Germans for the US.

This would enable the lowering of inital IC totals for these countries to more realistic values:

Canada:
Original IC in 1936: 92
Proposed IC in 1936: 60
IC value by 1939 (when AI switches): 102
Trigger for switch: anchluss or munich conference

Australia:
Original IC in 1936: 42
Proposed IC in 1936: 22
IC value by 1938 (when AI switches): 56
Trigger for switch: anchluss, munich or nanking massacre

New Zealand:
Original IC in 1936: 25
Proposed IC in 1936: 15
IC value by 1939 (when AI switches): 30
Trigger for switch: anchluss or munich conference

South Africa:
Original IC in 1936: 32
Proposed IC in 1936: 16
IC value by 1939 (when AI switches): 38
Trigger for switch: anchluss or munich conference

United States:
Original IC in 1936: 862
Proposed IC in 1936: aprox 700
IC value by 1939 (when AI switches): aprox 950
Trigger for switch: fall of paris.

 

[Steel]

Ok, looks better now I'm slightly concerned about never being able to build coastal forts or (more importantly) AA in Scapa Flow.

Ref. AI files, yes you can get the AI to build IC improvements in a certain percentage of it's provinces. Set the ratio to 50% and you should see them build 12 IC / year with your suggested changes. The AI file would then need to be switched around 1938-1939 (or when GER declares war). It will almost certainly widen the gap between UK and GER, making the game easier for GER.