Fixing annoying subjects

[Martynios]

Hello fellow forumites,

I'm sure most of you have at least once experienced the issue of high liberty desire subjects that are not by far strong enough to declare independence and thus will stay disloyal for eternity.

Things like this can happen for example when a small vassal gets a few province defections shooting their LD to astronomical levels, not taking into account the fact that its overlord is far stronger and there is nobody around to support independence.

In such a case I just wish there would be a way to put that nonsensically disloyal subject back into its place by force, but this is impossible unless they declare independence, which in the most annoying cases they are in no position to.

I propose to add an "Enforce Loyalty" casus belli for any overlord against disloyal subjects. In the war the subject would be able to call in their allies and everyone supporting their independence. If the overlord wins the war, there is a special peace option called "Suppress Liberty Desire", which annuls all alliances of that subject with other subjects, cancels Support independence treaties and lowers liberty desire either by adding a decaying -50 like the one after an independence war, by removing modifiers like defected provinces or religion enforcement, or maybe both. If the subject wins the war it gets the possiblity to declare independence.

Perhaps, to prevent gamey tactics like: Enforce religion -> declare war before disloyal subject can get nations to support their independence -> profit, the subject could be enabled sign Support independence treaties during the war, dragging them in.

Thoughts?

 

[Martynios]

Nobody?

 

[bbqftw]

There absolutely should be something like this, or a timer on support independence actions.

 

[atwix]

I once had a vassal who was disloyal for 300 years due to defections. I think it was like 300 LD from defections, which ticked down by 1 a year.

three. hundred. years.

 

[Martynios]

I once had a vassal who was disloyal for 300 years due to defections. I think it was like 300 LD from defections, which ticked down by 1 a year.

three. hundred. years.

Really, 30% LD per province defection is horrendous... I would just have broken vassalisation and revassalised with force after in that situation.

Rather than tweaking the values though, which will never satisfy everyone, I would prefer my own solution.

 

[atwix]

Really, 30% LD per province defection is horrendous.

I adapted strategy to this, for Persia. If you let persian rebels defect to you after releasing Persia, they will never go to 0% ld ever again in your campaign.

So, I let Timurids COLLAPSE to rebels instead. Then you don't get the defection LD modifier.

It has annoyed me since forever.

Maybe @DDRJake can do a good word for this issue

 

[Martynios]

I adapted strategy to this, for Persia. If you let persian rebels defect to you after releasing Persia, they will never go to 0% ld ever again in your campaign.

So, I let Timurids COLLAPSE to rebels instead. Then you don't get the defection LD modifier.

It has annoyed me since forever.

Maybe @DDRJake can do a good word for this issue

I think I read the thread where you posted that workaround .

 

[Norik]

The real question is why does liberty desire from province defection even exist

 

[grommile]

The real question is why does liberty desire from province defection even exist

I think it's partly because Iran both (a) is easy to release as a vassal (b) has a huge pile of primary-culture cores held by a country that is extremely vulnerable to rebels. Fundamentally, Paradox don't really want expansion by "release vassal in one province and let their cores defect to them via rebels" to be a thing. The previous iteration of such restraints was "rebels will never defect to a vassal if a vaguely eligible independent country also exists".

 

[Martynios]

I think it's partly because Iran both (a) is easy to release as a vassal (b) has a huge pile of primary-culture cores held by a country that is extremely vulnerable to rebels. Fundamentally, Paradox don't really want expansion by "release vassal in one province and let their cores defect to them via rebels" to be a thing. The previous iteration of such restraints was "rebels will never defect to a vassal if a vaguely eligible independent country also exists".

This is injustified however when a vassal (Bulgaria in my case) gets provinces defected to it without intervention of the player.

This question is besides the point though, no matter how real it might be.
Please keep this thread on topic, discussing whether or not a mechanic should be removed is just a cause for arguments.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

There are some fundamental gameplay and historical reasons the mechanic needs some help.

The idea that a "subject" nation can ignore its obligations in war, *refuse to pay taxes*, even straight up ally against its overlord without the overlord having any say or counterplay is vexing and counterintuitive. It would be like 13 colonies saying "no taxation without representation", then proceeding to straight up ignore the crown/pay nothing to it whatsoever...but still technically be a subject anyway so the crown can't act without making them independent and losing heaps of stability.

Same goes for vassals. This isn't some abstract "they are plotting under the table to break free". These nations are actively showing disloyalty in refusing to commit resources in terms of troops or money, against orders. Knowing this, the overlord can do...nothing but eat a huge stab hit without rectifying the issue?

 

[grommile]

Unless you've bought the appropriate DLC and can reliably obtain huge quantities of Prestige.

 

[Tacticus101]

I feel the ability to declare "enforce loyalty" wars would make maintaining vassals a little easy, every time one went above 50% liberty desire you would just knock them back down again.

Also, bare in mind that subjects like the 13 colonies will still defend their own borders, they just wont send troops elsewhere when on high liberty desire. Maybe they should just change it so that subjects ask their overlord if they can stop paying tribute over 50% LD, which can be accepted for a reduction or refused for an increase.

 

[Martynios]

Unless you've bought the appropriate DLC and can reliably obtain huge quantities of Prestige.

Six province defections cause 130% LD, you would have to pump three times 90 prestige into it...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I feel the ability to declare "enforce loyalty" wars would make maintaining vassals a little easy, every time one went above 50% liberty desire you would just knock them back down again.

Also, bare in mind that subjects like the 13 colonies will still defend their own borders, they just wont send troops elsewhere when on high liberty desire. Maybe they should just change it so that subjects ask their overlord if they can stop paying tribute over 50% LD, which can be accepted for a reduction or refused for an increase.

Fighting over land you already subjugated is not a cost-effective proposition you'd want to rely on too frequently. Fighting their troops, their rebels, committing to sieging that junk for a while...that might not be overly challenging, but it's a resource sink you'd still avoid when possible.

 

[grommile]

Six province defections cause 130% LD, you would have to pump three times 90 prestige into it...

That's why I said huge.

 

[Martynios]

I feel the ability to declare "enforce loyalty" wars would make maintaining vassals a little easy, every time one went above 50% liberty desire you would just knock them back down again.

Not if they can sign support independence treaties during the war. This way, only vassals that have no justification to be rebelliouscan be suppressed

 

[Martynios]

That's why I said huge.

How?

 

[BarskiPatzow]

I feel the ability to declare "enforce loyalty" wars would make maintaining vassals a little easy, every time one went above 50% liberty desire you would just knock them back down again.

Also, bare in mind that subjects like the 13 colonies will still defend their own borders, they just wont send troops elsewhere when on high liberty desire. Maybe they should just change it so that subjects ask their overlord if they can stop paying tribute over 50% LD, which can be accepted for a reduction or refused for an increase.

Well a strong country obviously would stomp vassals for doing things like that. If they are strong enough to defeat you then it makes sense for them to want to break off. Problem is when they are weak but still have endless LD.

 

[grommile]

How?

In the extreme: Be Orthodox so you can Restore the Pentarchy (gives you Conquest of Rome and Conquest of Jerusalem as side benefits) and conquer Mecca, hire a Philosopher, have Influence and Religious Ideas, and run around winning short victorious wars in which you make Prestige-focused demands.

This is, admittedly, usually not a very practical approach.