Fix Volunterers or make them an optional feature

[Tisifoni12]

Okay, in the past I've encountered the Spanish, Venezuelan, etc. volunteers fighting in Spain and North Africa and also the stray division or two of US 'Volunteers' in East Africa and it has been annoying, but !

Latest run through, a German 1936 start running more or less to a historical timeline. In 1940, invade Denmark, then invade Benelux and France while waiting for Norway invasion plans to develop. With French campaign still running, six divisions are landed just SE of Oslo. Am I annoyed by the strength of Norwegian resistance, no, they fight valiantly, but are pushed back. Am I annoyed by the 11 British divisions/brigades that land at Christiansand, no, I separate a task force of 2/3 of my invasion force, surround and destroy them. I am a little perturbed that they just sit there and do nothing, rather than moving toward Oslo or making some sort of attempt to defend Norway.

What I am annoyed at is that as most of the invasion force is busy encircling and eliminating Norwegian forces in the Trondelag, the two brigades/divisions I send North to seize Narvik encounter not just a couple of Norwegian brigades/divisions, but at least 4 divisions of US 'volunteers'. The US is not at war, yet can send four divisions of volunteers. The, I believe 1/20 ratio implies that the US which is at peace has 80 divisions.

 

[Nevrion]

So you are annoyed, that USA has a political interest to defend Norway against fascism, but doesn't need to declare war? Don't see a problem here. Germany can also send volunteers to Spain, to help against communism without declaring war. Of course, the system could be improved. It would be nice to take your volunteers units back, without deleting them, for example, but I don't see a reason to fix something.

 

[Meglok]

So you are annoyed, that USA has a political interest to defend Norway against fascism, but doesn't need to declare war? Don't see a problem here. Germany can also send volunteers to Spain, to help against communism without declaring war. Of course, the system could be improved. It would be nice to take your volunteers units back, without deleting them, for example, but I don't see a reason to fix something.

The issue with volunteers is how unbalancing they are in the early to mid game and how completely historically implausible their spam is. There have been many threads and posts about this. Volunteers were not a huge historical issue, mainly limited to the SCW and to a small extent in China. Yet in HOI4 it is common to see 7 - 10 Soviets divisions in China, Japanese divisions all over Europe, American divisions all over the globe, etc etc. There is a good reason many MP games limit volunteers.

 

[Tisifoni12]

So you are annoyed, that USA has a political interest to defend Norway against fascism, but doesn't need to declare war? Don't see a problem here. Germany can also send volunteers to Spain, to help against communism without declaring war. Of course, the system could be improved. It would be nice to take your volunteers units back, without deleting them, for example, but I don't see a reason to fix something.

The Spanish Civil War is a special case. There were volunteers on both sides. The Republican volunteers are represented in the game by 'International Brigade' units, the German, Italian and Russian 'volunteers' by the option of sending 'volunteers'. These were of course not volunteers in the sense of motivated individuals, but support provided by states. The Italian 'volunteers' were told they were going to Africa until they arrived in Spain. Soviet 'volunteers' were not historically provided in divisional strength, but amounted to military advisers/trainers. Yes some Russians served as tank crew and pilots in combat, but these never amounted to more than a few hundred at any time. This would be better represented by giving the Republicans the ability to form tank brigades if they receive Soviet lend-lease (maybe they can anyway and I haven't noticed). The German 'volunteer' contribution to the Nationalist side was larger, but similar in character, primarily tanks and tank crew, aircraft and aircrew. Only the Italians sent significant numbers of infantry.

Other examples of volunteers are non-UK/Commonwealth/Empire pilots in the RAF, American pilots in China. The former is marginal and doesn't need to be included, the latter is represented by lend-lease. Non-Germans serving in the armed forces of the Third Reich were in German equipped and trained units, essentially German units with foreign soldiers, not volunteer units. The largest example perhaps being the Spanish Blue Division; essentially a German division of Spanish personnel.

I know some players like this feature, I just would like to make it optional. Although I sent Soviet volunteers to Spain in a couple of early games and sent German volunteers to Spain when I played HOI 1 and 2, I now don't send volunteers. I would like the option to deprive the AI of this option too. I do send lend-lease.

I do see a problem with the US deploying ground forces in Norway without being at war. We're talking four divisions here, four military formation, not a bunch of volunteers from Minnesota (high percentage of state population of Scandinavian heritage) turning up to join the Norwegian Army or arriving as 'International Brigades'. Historically it took the Japanese declaration of war and attack on Pearl Harbour to go to war. Limited Intervention for the US was anti-submarine warfare in the Atlantic.

 

[rcbricker33]

I agree that the US ability to send volunteers should be delay/limited due to their isolationistic position, however, All other countries should basically have the right to do so if they wish. Maybe France a little also just to show their deep desire to not bleed out in another war.

 

[Black_Shade]

An easy fix would for volunteer spam would be to only allow them in civil wars, as the major powers try and ensure that their ideology wins in the civil war. For everything else it should be lend lease or require a direct declaration of war.

 

[rcbricker33]

what about the condor legion?

 

[grandad1982]

My main problem with volunteers is that you could potentially send several 40 width heavy tank and mech divisions, fully tricked out with support and artillery. That's not a volunteer or even a 'volunteer' force. That's a full scale government backed declaration of war!

 

[Opanashc]

My main problem with volunteers is that you could potentially send several 40 width heavy tank and mech divisions, fully tricked out with support and artillery. That's not a volunteer or even a 'volunteer' force. That's a full scale government backed declaration of war!

Look at Chinese volunteers in Korean War. Several hundred thousand men, yet Beijing and Washington officially remained at peace.

 

[C-Breeze]

Yet in HOI4 it is common to see 7 - 10 Soviets divisions in China, Japanese divisions all over Europe, American divisions all over the globe, etc etc.

IMO, the devs really need to get a handle on this. Right now, it's just too open ended. The idea of having scores of volunteer divisions scattered across the globe is a complete farce. No country was ever that involved historically, and even if they were, it doesn't make any sense logistically. Imagine the political effort of trying to round up and equip sympathizers for nearly every conflict on earth? What country would ever undertake such a task?

Also, it often becomes quite foolish in-game, like when the Soviets decide to send volunteers to fight for Poland AFTER the German non-aggression event has already fired. In which case, the player is asked to suspend disbelief that the Soviets might actually attempt to repel the German invasion when they already have a deal to spit the country with Germany in their back pocket. Dear Devs: Less of this please.

Should be a simple fix in the defines no? Provided it doesn't unbalance something else.

 

[Tisifoni12]

what about the condor legion?

The Condor legion was a air force unit, so would be represented by lend-lease, like US aircrew in China. The Germans also sent tanks and crews to Spain. If you look at the Battle of Jarama, there were 55 German light tanks present (Pz I and/or II) which is the equivalent of a battalion, operating in association with Spanish forces. Like having a German battalion in a Spanish division. Again arguably better represented by lend-lease.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_involvement_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War#Military_operations

Look at Chinese volunteers in Korean War. Several hundred thousand men, yet Beijing and Washington officially remained at peace.

The Korean War is a separate conflict to WW2. It was a civil war, with China and Russia supporting their 'Communists' and the US, UK, Turkey, Greece, etc. supporting the Democracy. So not like Neutral Venezuela sending volunteers to participate in Germany's offensive wars against France, Belgium, etc. China has a border with Korea so it could deploy those 'volunteers' relatively easily. The US could arguably relatively easily deploy 'volunteers' to Norway of Africa. That doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't happen. The teleportation* of 'volunteers' between Europe and South East Asia is an utter nonsense. Maybe they've already cleared that up.

*And teleportation, with a nominal delay of two weeks in the transporter buffer, is how it works, as Paradox have explained, when 'volunteers' are deployed.

 

[Tisifoni12]

One of the reasons, perhaps the reason, why the Devs included this was to allow states to gain Xp before joining a war as regular belligerents; that idea originating from the experience gained by Germany and the Soviets in Spain.

Instead the gain of 'pre-war' Xp could be based on lend-lease. Not points for everything, or points based on volume of lend-lease, e.g. not 0.1 per tank or ten tanks.
It could be nothing for motorized, infantry weapons and support equipment, something for sending tanks, aircraft, not sure about artillery. The amount of Xp could be proportionate to what is sent or a set amount provided a certain minimum commitment is made; 5 Xp for sending tanks or 1 Xp for every battalion of tanks sent.

 

[Lumpy]

One of the reasons, perhaps the reason, why the Devs included this was to allow states to gain Xp before joining a war as regular belligerents; that idea originating from the experience gained by Germany and the Soviets in Spain.

Instead the gain of 'pre-war' Xp could be based on lend-lease. Not points for everything, or points based on volume of lend-lease, e.g. not 0.1 per tank or ten tanks.
It could be nothing for motorized, infantry weapons and support equipment, something for sending tanks, aircraft, not sure about artillery. The amount of Xp could be proportionate to what is sent or a set amount provided a certain minimum commitment is made; 5 Xp for sending tanks or 1 Xp for every battalion of tanks sent.

Doesn't lend leasing equipment to other nation gives you XP when they use it?

 

[Baron Jukaga]

Look at Chinese volunteers in Korean War. Several hundred thousand men, yet Beijing and Washington officially remained at peace.

Interesting fact: most of those were ex-Nationalist prisoners who were given a choice, maybe die from the American bullets or surely die from the Commissar's.

 

[Baron Jukaga]

Doesn't lend leasing equipment to other nation gives you XP when they use it?

I know I get tons of XP from dumping old rifles and stuff in LL.

 

[rjohansen]

I have written about this in the past. The volunteer mechanics is one of the worst features (of many) of HOI4. I liked one of the earlier suggestions in this thread, make it only available for civil wars, that would limit the stupidity at least. But a better solution would be that it was actual volunteers, not entire divisions, unless it was done so historically. Just manpower. The receiver could then form "free" battalions and combine them into brigades/divisions and get "instant" units on the map for instance.

 

[C-Breeze]

Doesn't lend leasing equipment to other nation gives you XP when they use it?

Yes, pretty sure it does. I also like the Civil War limitation suggestion for volunteers. In practical terms, the only way volunteers make sense is if they're fighting for an ideological cause. Not willy-nilly across the globe simply because we can get them there.

There has to be a popular appeal behind the volunteer movement. That is, the government has to be able to sell people on the idea. Which usually takes time, ties to the disputed region, political capital, money and effort. There's no magic wand where volunteers just materialize out of thin air. Often, you need to tug at heart strings to get people to act, and that's seldom quick and easy.

 

[ForsakenSoldier]

Look at Chinese volunteers in Korean War. Several hundred thousand men, yet Beijing and Washington officially remained at peace.

I love when people "respectfully disagree" with blatant FACTS. lol.

 

[rjohansen]

I love when people "respectfully disagree" with blatant FACTS. lol.

Not sure. But could be because that example is not a good example of volunteers in general. I was not the one disagreeing, but could easily just have done so.

 

[rcbricker33]

The Condor legion was a air force unit, so would be represented by lend-lease, like US aircrew in China. The Germans also sent tanks and crews to Spain. If you look at the Battle of Jarama, there were 55 German light tanks present (Pz I and/or II) which is the equivalent of a battalion, operating in association with Spanish forces. Like having a German battalion in a Spanish division. Again arguably better represented by lend-lease.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_involvement_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War#Military_operations

ok what about the blue division?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_during_World_War_II#Spanish_volunteers_in_Axis_service

The point of my previous post was that volunteers were in WWII were not just in civil wars.