Fix Fatamids

[DominusNovus]

So, played a new Alexiad campaign, where I tweaked the muslims some more.
- Disabled Holy Wars against Miaphysites
- Reduced Muslim Invasions to Duchies
- Disable Shia Jihads

And the Fatamids *still* ate Abyssinia within a couple decades (well, most of Abyssinia). Gonna try to disable muslim invasions against Miaphysites, and have Egypt be Sunni, rather than Shia. Hopefully it does the trick.

 

[ComradeOm]

I have to admit that I'm surprised by people holding up the conquest of Abyssinia as a sign of Fatimid power. A powerful kingdom gobbling up a much smaller and poorer relation to the south shouldn't really be making waves. Far more alarming are the conquests of Greece and Italy within a few decades

- Disable Shia Jihads

How did you go about doing that?

 

[grisamentum]

No need to do anything about the Fatimids themselves.

Just reduce the frequency of Jihads (half to that of Crusades since there are two caliphs) and reduce the Invasion CB to target duchies, not Kingdoms. Or remove it altogether and have them go with Holy War.

Doesn't fix anything. The main problem right now is that half of the time, the Fatimids holy war all the way to Baghdad and beyond.

The problem IS the Fatimids. The caliph was NOT a strong ruler. He was a political football that the emirs and the grand vizier fought over.

CK2 simply has no way to model this at all and as a result the game is utterly broken.

 

[grisamentum]

I have to admit that I'm surprised by people holding up the conquest of Abyssinia as a sign of Fatimid power. A powerful kingdom gobbling up a much smaller and poorer relation to the south shouldn't really be making waves. Far more alarming are the conquests of Greece and Italy within a few decades

How did you go about doing that?

Disabling shia jihads won't matter anyway. Usually the problem is a Fatimid INVASION of Greece. Not a jihad.

 

[grisamentum]

So, played a new Alexiad campaign, where I tweaked the muslims some more.
- Disabled Holy Wars against Miaphysites
- Reduced Muslim Invasions to Duchies
- Disable Shia Jihads

And the Fatamids *still* ate Abyssinia within a couple decades (well, most of Abyssinia). Gonna try to disable muslim invasions against Miaphysites, and have Egypt be Sunni, rather than Shia. Hopefully it does the trick.

Egypt absolutely should be shia. This is a huge reason why the Fatimids are far more stable in-game than in real life. In real life, the Fatimids were basically crazy heretic conquerors from farther west. Not all-powerful sultans of a united Egypt.

 

[burny26]

the rampaged through greece and are at the baltic sea in less than 20 years since conquest of greece.... So far playing as a byzzie duke after buying lor :/

 

[DominusNovus]

I have to admit that I'm surprised by people holding up the conquest of Abyssinia as a sign of Fatimid power. A powerful kingdom gobbling up a much smaller and poorer relation to the south shouldn't really be making waves. Far more alarming are the conquests of Greece and Italy within a few decades

How did you go about doing that?

You can disable a religion's ability to call crusades/jihads in the religion files.

As for Abyssinia, I don't think its being cited as evidence of the Fatimids power; its being cited as one way that the game's not working correctly (and never has been). The muslims *never*, in 1400 years of existence tried to seriously conquer Ethiopia. You could make the argument that the Ottomans, well outside of the scope of the game, may have wanted to, but didn't get the chance. They most that was ever done was take away Ethiopian access to the Red Sea trade. Which, to be honest, was the only thing worth taking in Ethiopia at the time anyway (which made have been a large reason as to why they weren't conquered).

So, in short, that the muslims, particularly the Fatamids, constantly decide to invade Abyssinia and Nubia is just annoying. There are reasons why Ethiopia managed to remain independent from antiquity to World War 2, and none of the p'dox games have ever modeled any of those reasons or made any attempt. Sadly, CK2 is the most outstanding in its inability to model this.

 

[maccyb]

Muslims need to attack each other more often.

Started from the new Byzantine start date. Less than 20 years later I'm trying to fight off two jihads.

 

[TAoD]

Ive assassinated their rulers a couple of times and that seems to do them in at the best, especially if they have a ton of sibling and they usually do. But its expensive and risky to have to assassinate the Caliph to simply bring the Fatmids down a couple of notchs...only to still spam 19K-25k troops... T_T

And I rarely see a successful Crusade in the Levant, its disappointing. France never wants to help, or the HRE.

 

[DominusNovus]

Muslims need to attack each other more often.
(snip)
Started from the new Byzantine start date. Less than 20 years later I'm trying to fight off two jihads.

To paraphrase Captain Jack Sparrow: Why is the Rum *not* gone? 21 years into the game, and you haven't beat them down at all?

 

[DominusNovus]

Ive assassinated their rulers a couple of times and that seems to do them in at the best, especially if they have a ton of sibling and they usually do. But its expensive and risky to have to assassinate the Caliph to simply bring the Fatmids down a couple of notchs...only to still spam 19K-25k troops... T_T

And I rarely see a successful Crusade in the Levant, its disappointing. France never wants to help, or the HRE.

Starting in 1081, I'm glad to never see a successful Crusade in the Levant; they tie up the Seljuks while I butcher the Sultanate of Rum. By the time they give up on the Crusade, the Seljuks are tired, Rum's gone, and I can pick up where the Latins left off.

 

[TAoD]

Well, I did a test. The fatmid ruler got assassinated and they did have a civil war, after they conquered Rome and pretty much all of southern Italy...>.>
They recovered remarkably well after the civil wars, still with the ability to spawn huge doom stacks, of course claiming a Jihad on me as the factions in my own empire rebel. Good job there vassals...

You know to be honest, this is the most frustrating game Ive ever played.
I enjoyed the game a thousand times more playing without Factions, and away from the middle east.
Its just so blegh right now. Too much multitasking.

 

[Hootieleece]

In my first LoR game.(Ireland)

I saw Seljuk troops helping Shia Caliph with Jihad for Galicia.(They were Allies)I needed to hire 2 outta 3 Holy Orders plus personal levies to kill the Doom stacks.

Shia and Sunni should not be helping with each others Wars even Allied. (At best the wives should be Hostages for good behavior,Medeival NAP)

 

[bahhumbag]

seems alot of ppl are ticked off about the fatimids, and rightly so.

But this is more of a problem with blobbing powers in general like HRE and Seljuks as well. But no one at PI is taking note? or ppl on forum not being vocal enough?

I mean failing to get the devs' attention you only got 1 choice...mod? vanilla is pretty unenjoyable i have to say....

 

[AndreasPhokas]

Another power that is just as bad as the fatimids but a bit more subtle is the holy roman empire, factions helped some but they rarely splinter more than maybe one or two breakoff states. They dont landgrab as much as the fatimids but they rarely break apart. Usually an italian power or 2 can break away but is often times brought back. Never seen a german state break away and last more than the duration of a truce

 

[cybrxkhan]

^The factions system has been a decent check on blobbing so far - though not as effective as I've hoped. However, even so, all the blobbing powers still pale in comparison to the Fatimids. I mean, I was kind of surprised when in my first LoR game the Fatimids did a Jihad on Sicily and their doomstacks completely annihilated the HRE doomstacks. The Fatimids are the ultimate blobbing power, relatively speaking.

Otherwise, yeah, I go for mods now - nowadays I just stick to Project Balance. I'm pretty sure a few other mods (i.e. CK2+ and a couple of the smaller mods) fix blobbing in their own way, too. But that doesn't change the fact that the base game has the Fatimids as the most ridiculous blobbers.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Hmm, perhaps Jihads should only be declared at provinces at the religious frontiers, which should means the Shias wouldn't be able to declare Jihad on kingdoms not bordering the Fatimids or other Shia factions. Perhaps the Sunni and Shia Caliphs could be able to declare Jihad on each other.

But of course the most important fix would have to be to make the Fatimids as unstable as IRL. I.e. make them start decadent and loathed by their vassals.

 

[Portal]

Make all the Fatimid provinces and vassals Sunni, and make Nubian and Ethiopian AI's marry with the Fatimids and hold alliances.

 

[TheLionHeart]

I think the easiest way to fix it is just by only being able to call jihads on areas that were once part of the Caliphate because the word in itself means "struggle" in Arabic so they thought of the jihad as much more a defensive measure to protect the Muslim people from the very aggressive Christians. I don't think calling a jihad for Greece is too realistic all it does is enforce the negative stereotype that Muslims are blood thirsty monsters, I think that making the jihad much more defensive would make them seem much more wiser and respectable as they were at the time. Also taking away the invasion causus belli because it just serves to make the Muslims much too powerful as it is basically like calling a crusade when ever they please while Christians have to wait years before the pope "might" call a crusade for a kingdom that you want, the whole invasion of Muslims into Europe wasn't that common at the time except in Iberia where they were constantly attacking the Spanish kingdoms. Muslim conquest did not really spread very far into Europe ever in the middle ages it was only until the ottoman empire that Muslims began to reach Europe's doorstep, and the ottoman's conquest's are mostly in EU4's time frame.

 

[MartinSWE]

I think the easiest way to fix it is just by only being able to call jihads on areas that were once part of the Caliphate because the word in itself means "struggle" in Arabic so they thought of the jihad as much more a defensive measure to protect the Muslim people from the very aggressive Christians. I don't think calling a jihad for Greece is too realistic all it does is enforce the negative stereotype that Muslims are blood thirsty monsters, I think that making the jihad much more defensive would make them seem much more wiser and respectable as they were at the time. Also taking away the invasion causus belli because it just serves to make the Muslims much too powerful as it is basically like calling a crusade when ever they please while Christians have to wait years before the pope "might" call a crusade for a kingdom that you want, the whole invasion of Muslims into Europe wasn't that common at the time except in Iberia where they were constantly attacking the Spanish kingdoms. Muslim conquest did not really spread very far into Europe ever in the middle ages it was only until the ottoman empire that Muslims began to reach Europe's doorstep, and the ottoman's conquest's are mostly in EU4's time frame.

Indeed. It can´t be stressed enough that jihads are ALWAYS a defensive 'last option' reaction to foreign invasion/occupation of muslim territory. A (holy) war initiated against a non-muslim area can NEVER be a proper Jihad.

Also speaking of Spain their should be animosity between the Muslims in Iberia and those in Northern Africa because historically the main reason why Iberia ended up as christian was because muslims outside of Iberia didn´t want to get involved there.