Fix Fatamids

[BBBD316]

The only caveat I would add is that if you allow the Jihad for Sicily to succeed you will have a devil of a time getting them back out of there.

I had Apulia and had 3 jihads called, 2 Fat and 1 Sej. S.O.B'S!!!!

 

[unmerged(255079)]

I have a game running where the Fatimids were invaded by a nearby Duke and totally conquered. Their lands are now owned by the Is'mailids. They also lost Crusades to the Christians and failed several jihads in Iberia. They're still the strongest Muslim state though - the HRE has done an incredible number on everyone else.

 

[Dekent]

Wow the Fatamids are going nuts in my first game of LoR too. They have taken the Christian Spain, Italy and Sicily, and now just took most of Byzantium (so much for the expansion of them!) in the first 30 years! Is there something I can mod to make them war with each other or not be quite so overpowered?

 

[NosgothKingdom]

Fatimids are definately insane....i like to start a touch later so they are weaker, i always see the seljuks implode(although at times it takes a bit) but the fatimids never do ever. As the byzantines i usually start later(alexiad,1205,1261 for instance) so its a harder challenge but the AI usually expands in europe and loses ground in asia minor.

Ive only had the displeasure of them attacking me once and it was when i was playing as the duchyof barcelona. I had just united aragon when the dreaded shia jihad hit. Luckily France and the HRE backed me up because i placed alliances(france saved my rear a couple times earlier in the game) but it was still a crazy war(side note i was the last christian kingdom in iberia, everyone else was gone(1066 start). Tens of thousands of levies all over the place, we wound up winning but it was stupid regardless.

I had the exact same thing happened, but without the holy roman empire. Replace that with lots of mercenary groups and that's how I survived.... until they called the next jihad. (y)

The only way I could pay for those mercenaries for so long was that I was capturing leaders from their stacks so often I was making tons of money with the ransoms. And the holy wars were both being used forever in silly wars, like sweden war to conquer 1 province pagan. After years I got one.

The moment I got the second jihad against me - and still no holy orders availiable, no france and even less money at the start - it was basically a game over.

 

[Arimahn]

Whelp. Notice how it's only 11 years into the game. I literally didn't even see what happened because I play in windowed mode and was browsing stuff. Then I came back and... yea.

 

[yourworstnightm]

The Fatimids need to start with high decadence and unhappy vassals. The Fatimid Caliphate was never stable. It should be a challenge for the player to keep it together, and the AI should have loads of problems doing that.

This being said decadence wars really need an overhaul. More often should they result in realms falling apart, than the current situation where they reform under a new dynasty.

 

[unmerged(488308)]

The only way I did not see them bloodlusting the world, is seeing them stuck with an imbecile sultan for 50 years.
Still they conquered Anatolia...

 

[Comradebot]

Even with later start dates they're a pain. You can leave em' with just Egypt and they're still a stable realm with access to a merc group that's the size of a medium kingdom's total army by itself, and a holy order that gameplay-wise exists solely for their benefit. They absolutely need a re-balancing... the potential for them to become a nightmare should exist, but I truly get sick of watching them, game after game, just ROFLstomping everything in sight... the only times I've ever seen them not turn into some ungodly blob is when I've focused my entire efforts into stopping them, and even then it requires a massive amount of luck. One time, when I was the emperor of Persia, I'd helped reduce them to a single county.

Within a decade, they'd taken Greece from the ERE.

 

[theKing1988]

Most of the times when i play as the Byzzies i start in 1082, when Alexios Komnenos have gained the throne and despite being confined to Egypt itself, the Fatimids are still WAY more of a threat than the Seljuks who can't keep their realm together that long.

 

[Cetan]

No need to do anything about the Fatimids themselves.

Just reduce the frequency of Jihads (half to that of Crusades since there are two caliphs) and reduce the Invasion CB to target duchies, not Kingdoms. Or remove it altogether and have them go with Holy War.

Disagree. They're still insane pre-1100 when they're at the #1-#3 spot in Army Size, and then you toss in the virtually free Mamluks adding another 7000 men.

Most of the times when i play as the Byzzies i start in 1082, when Alexios Komnenos have gained the throne and despite being confined to Egypt itself, the Fatimids are still WAY more of a threat than the Seljuks who can't keep their realm together that long.

This. The Seljuks always break apart numerous times during the course of the game. The Fatimids never really do that.

I think it has a lot to do with the two main portions of the Fatimids (Jerusalem and Alexandria) being the Caliph's son, and therefore never breaking apart. Heck, even when I console'd their independence, they swore fealty within a few years after.

 

[GothicEmperor]

This. The Seljuks always break apart numerous times during the course of the game. The Fatimids never really do that.

I think it has a lot to do with the two main portions of the Fatimids (Jerusalem and Alexandria) being the Caliph's son, and therefore never breaking apart. Heck, even when I console'd their independence, they swore fealty within a few years after.

Well, It also matters that the Caliph himself is both very healthy (meaning he'll stay around for a long time) and very well-liked (almost ridiculously so). I don't think that's very historically accurate.

 

[Booo]

This. The Seljuks always break apart numerous times during the course of the game. The Fatimids never really do that.

Can you explain why this happens?
Would the Seljuks be as threatening as the Fatimids if it was stable? (They haven't got easy fleet access for one)

 

[ComradeOm]

Do they limit Shia jihads?

There shouldn't even be Shi'a jihads. That was an exclusively Sunni activity

 

[grumphie]

the fatamids have A. some VERY rich provinces, B. have the caliph as head of the state(and thus EXTREMLY effective jihads), and C. start with a ultra-loved leader noone event THINKS of rebelling against. the fatamids would be much better balanced if they suffered from the interrealm strife as much as the seljuks do. currently theyre overly stable, which is the main problem. maybe throw in some more bad traits for him and his children?

 

[Meroveeus]

Maybe if they limited the first Jihad until 20 years after the Pope calls the 1st crusade it may reflect better its use as a response to Christian aggression, also having not played as Muslim i can't be sure if this is correct already but if you limited their invasions to only states larger than them it would really only leave the HRE and maybe ERE as being bigger and possible targets.
At least that should spare Italy and Spain for anything but Holy war.

That's historical inaccurate as the Crusades were actually a response to Muslim aggression and to a demand of help from Byzantine.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Perhaps Shias should not be allowed to call for Jihad.

 

[Bezborg]

Been reading a lot of threads on the subject, the invasion CB seems to be the most frequently suggested fix. Make it smaller than a kingdom or delete it completely. I believe this would greatly improve the situation

 

[ComradeOm]

Perhaps Shias should not be allowed to call for Jihad

They shouldn't. The Shi'a believed that only the Imam had the authority to call for a jihad. For most Shi'a (Twelvers) this was an impossibility as there was no Imam and while the Fatimid caliphs technically fitted the bill for the Ismailis (until 1094 at least) I don't think they ever had the moral authority, or inclination, to engage in formal holy war

 

[Loderingo]

Holy orders should be available for free (no piety cost) to defend a Jihad against Catholics, if need be withdrawing from an attacking war somewhere else.

Also I think that larger kingdoms generally should get a nerf against the smaller countries via some sort of "corruption" or "distance" modifier reducing troop numbers

I also like the idea of naval attrition (above). There should be a risk of storms sinking some of your ships (and killing your troops) particularly if sailing in the winter months.

 

[maidros]

In my current game, the Fatimids have England and Flanders, alongside Aquitaine, France, Burgundy, Provence and Flanders. They have absolutely no problems even with high crown authority whatsoever. Joy!