Fix central european borders

[Rhipeen]

Please fix, those borders, especially the Bohemian ones (being native it hurts my eyes), I am suprised that for the entire existence of this game those borders havent been fixed. Here are some of things that are wrong with Bohemia on bordering provinces:

Praha is on the other side of Elbe on the river Moldau (Vltava)
Hradec was never part of Moravia (speaking about duchies, not Great Moravia)
Znojmo on the other hand was always part of Moravia and never bordered Danube
Hradec is north of Boleslav (and much more east)
Plzen is to the east of Domazlice
The whole borders are moved to the east, Vltava (Moldau) that is on the map was always whole under Bohemia and Elbe flows out of bohemia near the northernmost part, not the westernmost
Lusatia was more east (Elbe reason above)
Greater Poland never had an apendix over Silesia

Since we never had much specified areas like the rest of not rome influenced europe, here are some maps from 13th and 15th centuries, where you can see the rivers and important cities on the first one, and administration on the second one. The administration of Moravia on that map is from Premyslid times, ck2 period, and the Bohemian one was done during the reign of Charles IV Bohemian king and HRE emperor who made local nobilities centered around important cities (end of ck2 period and the closest you can get to some administration map).

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

Ok ok, welp, I still stand behind my borders suggestion (not with Přerovsko).
Back to holding limit, since a provinces in unhospitable Tibet can have 6 holdings, why shouldnt we boost holdings of Bohemia to better reflect its historical strenght? (aside from the fact it could look little weird on certain maps like the total holdings map)

Yes, but let's not overdo it... Bohemia actually already is pretty powerful, it does not need THAT much of a buff. If Bohemia had say 5k levies, Poland had some 6.5k and Hungary like 5.8k it should be good.

 

[elvain]

propably would be better to ask @elvain

Thank you for such a compliment, but Is it (my commentary) really necessary?

Ok ok, welp, I still stand behind my borders suggestion (not with Přerovsko).
Back to holding limit, since a provinces in unhospitable Tibet can have 6 holdings, why shouldnt we boost holdings of Bohemia to better reflect its historical strenght? (aside from the fact it could look little weird on certain maps like the total holdings map)

As have said I have modded the game to several different variants suggested here and it showed that Bohemia can get really good buff with only few additional holdings to some provinces. Having more provinces won't make it significantly better. There is a high probability that at least some - the most important - provinces in K.o.Bohemia will have 6 holdings, but having it as a rule would make Bohemia overpowered, when compared to other regions.

Having 6 holdings as a rule or in most of Bohemian provinces would make Bohemia (kingdom) too powerfull when compared to other neighbouring regions, even considering that remarkable buff of Austria.

Why can Tibet have 6 holdings per province? Firstly the provinces of Tibet are much larger, even with CK2 map distorted in favour of Europe, they roughly cover areas similar to European duchies. And Tibet was in our period of concern quite powerfull. So reflecting this fact makes sense.
Of course that if Bohemia would be as it seems to look now, it would be bad, but it will be improved, so we don't really need to worry too much. I even quite understand the concerns of having Bohemia too powerfull if buffed too much, although it may look weird from purely Czech point of view (especially when looking at the current desperate state of the region).

I don't think I need to repeat what I already said. Though there is something:

Pilsen area never controled any territory near Elbe that would be Litoměřice county, the city itself lays on the river, bunch of territories Pilsen should have is taken by Domažlice county, Prague county just looks funny (my personal opinion) and other weird things, I personaly would go for 6+4 counties and maxed out the centralization + making there enough holdings, since the area to the west of elbe and north of Prague + Pilsen is weird, I would add the last province there and named it Žatecko, it could look kinda like this, Elbe would become big viking river at the point where it flows down together with Vltava

Firstly, like @Wenceslaus II. pointed out, Domažlice don't make sense at all for Southern Bohemia, since the town lies west of Plzeň... and was not even relevant during our period of concern.
Also the point about Plzen not controlling anything near Elbe is of course correct.
There are 2 possible solutions, none of which is IMHO ideal:
1) Extend province of Litomerice/Litomericko also to cover the west bank of Elbe, which I'd guess is impossible (devs won't do it)
2) add 6th province to Bohemia to cover the region of northwest Bohemia, the general agreement is that this province would be Žatec(ko). Considering the inability of AI Premyslid dukes/kings to hold Bohemia even with increased centralization, the devs are very reluctant to add 6th province for this reason.

There is of course the choice of granting this province to somebody else. For the era before rule of Boleslav I. in mid 10th century, we could assign it to some placeholder to represent those Bohemian princes who made Žatec center of their power in that time. For 1066 we have historical accounts of Vršovic family controlling the castellany of Žatec and we could extend this to the start of 12th century. In later bookmarks we would have to find some other solution.
The little problem is that between 1108 and mid 13th century there was no significant noble family which could fill the place (I mean any province). With big distortion of reality we could put Vítkovic family in charge of South Bohemia province (Doudlebsko, or South Bohemia), or Litoměřicko to the lords of Lipá/z Falknštejna etc. Which ever solution would be picked, there is a problem I described earlier: Adding 6th province and giving it to somebody else means that the duke will effectively control fewer holdings and would be weaker, not only relatively when compared to his vasals, but also in absolute numbers.

That said from both historical and gameplay perspective adding the sixth province is tricky and doesn't really produce the effect you all seem to desire: stronger Bohemia. I can imagine this being considered if Bohemia would appear to be too strong if the other suggestions (to strenghten it via added holdings) are implemented.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

How high centralization could Bohemia get anyway? Because they start as dukes - that's guaranteed 2 counties, if they started up also holding the duchy of Moravia, that would be 3 counties if I remember correctly. Now to hold at least 5 counties, they'd have to get medium centralization, for all 6 they'd need high.

 

[elvain]

How high centralization could Bohemia get anyway? Because they start as dukes - that's guaranteed 2 counties, if they started up also holding the duchy of Moravia, that would be 3 counties if I remember correctly. Now to hold at least 5 counties, they'd have to get medium centralization, for all 6 they'd need high.

Can't really say, but even expecting medium would be pretty ambitious. I can't say, to be honest. On the top of my mind I can't even recall what centralization is given to Byzantium.
It's the best to ask the devs directly.. @Snow Crystal ?

 

[Snow Crystal]

Can't really say, but even expecting medium would be pretty ambitious. I can't say, to be honest. On the top of my mind I can't even recall what centralization is given to Byzantium.
It's the best to ask the devs directly.. @Snow Crystal ?

Byzantium is given High Centralization. I was thinking Medium would fit Bohemia.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

Ok, I checked great duke can hold only 2 so with medium centralization it's only 4.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

Byzantium is given High Centralization. I was thinking Medium would fit Bohemia.

Ok, well. Let's hope it'll be enough. Will you at least give them duchy of Moravia from start, so they can at least get the great duke modifer? Also do you still have Cieszyn instead of Raciborz in Silesia?

 

[Rhipeen]

@elvain yeah I know what you mean, I just prefer that number of provinces because it looks better (although it sounds slightly ironic after my rambling about strenghts and whatever XD)
another solution could be to just cut the viking river Elbe to end in Lusatia or Meissen and give that land to Litoměřice like you said before, on the sketch I provided before (I will attach it again even if those province names are irrelevant) I tried to "paint" the bigger mountains/hills and rivers that often served as natural border, you can see that Cheb, Karlovy Vary (not existing at that time, just general area) are cut of from south (Pilsen), by "Slavkovský les and Doupovské hory" (biggest are almost 1000 above sea level, considering other areas in ck2 that are passable without problems despite terrain its nothing much (seeing that Balkans, Anatolia, Persia and other places still dont have enough unpassable mountain borders) but it was still not worth to assign center of control to Pilsen, similiar reason why Kladsko had its weird self status) back to what I wanted to say, that area is bit too far to assign it to Litoměřice, so we are back to the same problem, how to make Bohemia strong, while not giving too much provinces and not making it look horrible at the same time

or we could just add Litoměřice to Hradec are rename the county to Polabí and make it 6 or 7 holdings, but it would look kinda silly compared to smaller provinces on the south
(again ignore the names, just older sketch)

 

[Pernix]

@elvain Sorry for replying this late, I was on vacation, it might not be relevant anymore, still I just wanted to adress some of the stuff you wrote in your last reply to my post.

Why six for Bavaria? Because traditionaly it got divided into smaller feudal lordships which then changed hands and were not controlled by the dukes. At least in Bavaria. Why they did it in Austria is beyond me. Fact is that Bohemia was different. It was held by the duke/king and even the most powerfull local lords held at best power and territory which is equivalent to 2-3 baronies. Nothing larger and never a coherent area equivalent to entire CK2 county (unles the counties are made remarkably smaller and then Bohemia would need to have some 10 such counties, which is nonsense, since no duchy can have more than 6). Bohemia never experienced creation of feudal atomization like neighbouring regions like Bavaria or Silesia.
The only exceptions are Opava and Kladsko, which were each under special conditions and both are too small for a separate province in CK2, unles you want to make Kladsko cover large chunk of North-eastern Bohemia or Opava to cover too large area of north Moravia.

Ok, so this centralization arguement is clearly not the reason why the devs have decided to make Bavaria a 6 province duchy. If they did go by this line of thinking, Austria would definitely not be a 6 province duchy, as you yourself have pointed out, due to the Duchy of Austria being even more centralized throughout its history than Bohemia was.

It doesnt matter into how many feudal lordships any given territory was historically divided, that is not a concearn for this game, nor it can realistically be. What matters is the relative historical strenght and significance of any given realm. Also the level of centralization doesnt neccessarily depend on the amount of subdivisions, thats a completely separate issue.

Normally the duke of Bohemia with average stewardship has holding limit 3-4. If you increase centralization law, he can hold 4-5. That is still often one province less than he usualy holds. It ends up with dukes giving away their land, what makes them practicaly weaker than historical dukes, who held the entire territory of Bohemia.

If you go read my comment again, I was talking about the King of Bohemia. Yes, the duke might struggle (especially in the early game) to get his demesne limit to 6 (or even 5, for that matter), but king can do it relatively easily, since kings do get a bonus to their demesne limit. In 1066 the neighboring kings of Poland and Hungary both have their limit at 6 already, eventhough the king of Hungary is still a kid.

You can check how many men the duke can raise in various conditions. I have modded several variants and Bohemia with only 5 strong provinces with high number of holdings is more powerfull than with the same amount of holdings in 6 provinces. These are facts, not nonsense.

Yeah, obviously if you add provinces but keep the amount of holdings, you might not get a stronger realm. But that is not what I was proposing. I proposed that the Kingdom of Bohemia receives 3 new provinces, each with 3 holdings, plus the existing provinces would get like 3 holdings as well, for a total increase of 12 holdings. And dont tell me the devs cant do it, if they think it makes sense, in light of the changes in the region, there is nothing stoping them from adding provinces to Bohemia. So mod that in and send me link to the mod, otherwise there is no point to you mentioning some mods.

I have worked on previous map reworks with the devs and I have been discussing also this issue with them. I can't reveal details, all
I have worked on previous map reworks with the devs and I have been discussing also this issue with them. I can't reveal details, all I can say is that your assumption does not fit reality.
Just note one thing: There are 2 basically ways Bohemia can be reworked. 1) It could get added certain, relatively high number of holdings in 8 provinces. Or 2) it can get more provinces. BUT copared to the 1st option adding more counties would not add 3 holdings per province - as you wishfully assume - but effectively only one additional holding per province. It's because if those additional provinces would take land of those already in place, they would take also their holdings. For instance in option 1 Plzen could get 2 more hodings, but if there would be some province taking part of Plzen's territory (as part of option 2), Plzen would remain at its 4 holdings and the 2 additional would be part of the other - new - province.

Well, I might not have the insight, but I highly doubt that this addition of "relative high number of holdings" would be anything beyond 3 or 4, otherwise the devs would be creating this weird situation, where Bohemian and Moravian provinces each have 4 or 5 holdings, while the other provinces in central Europe would have like 2, which would be the case if you are correct in saying that the new provinces in central Europe will not add significantly to the total amount of holdings. So I dont know why the devs should take this route, instead of the one where KoB gets some more provinces and holdings, like everyone else in central Europe, which would be a lot more consistent with the rest of this patch. Btw, I dont assume anything, I am making suggestions, and as I have already said, there is no reason why the devs couldnt implemented it, if they thought it makes sense. There is no reason why they couldnt add 3 provinces while adding 12 holdings in total, or 10, or 8, or whatever is the correct amount in realation to what they are going to give to other states in central Europe.

Another thing I havent mentioned so far, is that Bohemia will actually lose 1 province, due to the current province of Znojmo being renamed and transfered to the duke of Austria. That makes a lot of sense historically, I have nothing against the change as such, but the fact is that Bohemia will actually lose a province (even if its not a de jure part of KoB), while all others in the region are gaining large number of provinces. For this reason alone Bohemia deserves additional province.

I modded several variants and tested it with existing game rules (capital bonuses etc.) and AI behaviour.
And the result is that X holdings in 8 provinces make Bohemia stronger than X+1 holdings in 9 provinces and X+2 holding in 10 provinces if those provinces are handed over to king's vasals (which is natural gameplay behaviour of the AI). That is of course as long as the capital stays in Prague.
Like it or not, this is fact. If you don't believe me, you can mod it yourself and see. So please be so kind and stop talking nonsense, okay?

Again, I dont care about mods you made in acordance with your own bias, try actualy moding in what I am proposing and compare it to whatever you are proposing and then send me the mod, if you want to have some kind of meaningful comparison.

Btw, my objective isnt to make Bohemia OP or anything, like I said, I would just like the changes for Bohemia to be consistent with the rest of the patch. There are about 30 provinces to be added in Central Europe and the Baltics, dont know why they couldnt add 2 or 3 for Bohemia and balance it in a way that is appropriate with the overall changes in the region. Its not a rocket science, ok, there is no reason why 2 or 3 more provinces should somehow mess Bohemia up, if implemented properly. The devs arent totally incompetent. Also this patch is probably one of the last opportunities to make some changes to Bohemia, especially considering that the later patches (cant imagine there will be many of them, at this point) might not revisit central Europe again. It would be a shame if they just threw a couple of holdings at it and were like "thats good enough", I think Bohemia deserves a bit more. It would be kinda sad even just from visual side as well, Bohemia would be left with these provinces that look kinda bulky, with all this spliting up of provinces in Central Europe. Both @Wenceslaus II. and @Rhipeen have send some pretty good map designs for Bohemia, hopefuly they will be looked into.

 

[Rhipeen]

@Pernix Like I said in one of my comments, 6B+4M counties look the best according to me (core Moravia Premyslid fiefs were kinda only Znojmo, Brno Olomouc after all, Opava being that weird land would make nice 4th province that would make the borders look allright even taken history into account) same thing with Žatecko, since the area under "Krušné hory/Erzgebirge" doesnt look in any way right when added to either Plzeň/Pilsen or Litoměřice (since Litoměřice would be on the other side of big viking river and Plzeň/Pilsen is behind 1000 mountains in rl and never controled that area) so making it the 6th province would make it look good.
The remaining problem I can think of is: what rivers should be adjusted and which added in? Well obv Vltava/Moldau should be moved entirely inside czech borders and not stretch somewhere to austria and bavaria. Youn can see on the map that Morava river is already in bud kinda ends still inside Rakousko when in rl it stretches all the way down to the north border of Moravia (now meaning duchy). The rivers I would add would be normal river extension of Labe/elbe with it becoming viking river in the place where it flows down together with Vltava/Moldau (also not sticking inside the heart of Bohemia would be good, since it flows more trough norther part). Other river would be Dyje/Thaya that would make border with Austria, and I would also add extension to Odra/Oder to stretch to Bohemia and make it the eastern border of Opava county. Other rivers that could be added would be Ohře, Sázava, Berounka and Svratka, but I dont know if that is too much (although looking at how flashed out french rivers look, it might not be)
Also said in other comment, cherry at the top of the dort would be Premyslid bloodline (saint ancestry and traditional controlers of Bohemia, present in all aside from almost the last possible dates you can choose manualy where there are Luxembourghs) the other cherry would be a nickname for Přemysl Otakar II. The Iron and Golden king

 

[elvain]

@Pernix I have asked the Czechs here to discuss things in more detail, to make some conclusion and forward it to the devs. The issues were discussed there with those who were willing to and despite remaining differences in opinions I believe we reached some common ground. You didn't answer the call.

Frankly I don't really care what were your reasons to ignore it. If you prefer this way of whinning and chattering, go ahead, but don't expect any actual results...

You had your chance. There was a possibility to seek common ground, you didn't answer the call. Not my problem.

Again, I dont care about mods you made in acordance with your own bias, try actualy moding in what I am proposing and compare it to whatever you are proposing and then send me the mod, if you want to have some kind of meaningful comparison.

I'm laughing very hard. I made the variants, one which had 6 provinces and one which had 5. The one with 5 had better overall results for Bohemia.

You may keep dreaming that adding 3 provinces to Bohemia would mean adding some 12 or so additional holdings, but as I mentioned several times - based on intensive communication of the issue with the devs - this is not happening, because they are concerned about Bohemia getting too powerfull if something like that happened. And my testing have confirmed it.

The case is. Even if KoB stays at 8 provinces, it will get increase by some 8-10 holdings, the final number is still a question of balance. If you'd add 3 more provinces - as you keep dreaming - , each with some 3-4 holdings, and keep the number of added holdings for the original 8 provinces at 8-10, that would mean some 8+9-12 new holdings in Bohemia - that is your dream as I understand it. But this is totally unreal. The devs won't do this, because it would make Bohemia terribly overpowered. So the only possibility is the case which I suggested - that is to have 8-10 additional holdings in 8 provinces, or 10-12 additional holdings in 9-10 provinces. I have already described which variant is better for Bohemia.

You keep talking about some unreal fantasies, I am discussing conditions and possibilities which are on the table. Since you keep dreaming about your fantasies and refuse to acknowledge the reality, it is the end of discussion for me.
You can talk about me being biased or whatever nonsense you wish. There is nothing easier than to actually try to mod the game yourself. Modding Bohemia into your fantasy model of 6+5 provinces would take you less than 1 hour. Then you can try the models I have described to you. Instead of writing some more nonsense here, you can compare them. You would btw see that your fantasy model means Bohemia being totally overpowered. Results of the 2 realistic models have already been described.

Anyway, it is more than obvious that our discussion reached a dead end and I don't see a reason why I should keep waisting my time in it.

PS: No KoB did not lose a province due to transfer of Znojmo. Znojmo was transferred INTO k_Bohemia, not outside. EDIT: correcting myself. I meant de jure. But considering de-facto situation, you are right. Sorry.

 

[Rhipeen]

@elvain but Bohemia with 5 counties looks kinda weird, giving area under Krušné hory/Erzgebirge to Plzeň/Pilsen just looks really weird, you could potentialy lower the number of holdings tho. Here is what I think looks fine in terms of just how it looks
other possibility would be to just cut off viking river before Bohemia, give some land to Litoměřice and some land to Pilsen, would still look weird, but better than Pilsen touching Labe/Elbe

 

[elvain]

@Rhipeen
I agree that adding Žatecko and Opavsko would make some sense, especially from strict historical and geographical perspective (and I have been suggesting it as one of possible - and from certain point even ideal setup). The main issue is gameplay, ballance and other technical stuff related to the way this game works.

In the last 15 years during map painting and games-modding I have been playing with various divisions of Bohemia into any number of territorial units between 2-10 and to be honest any such number is possible and any is relevant. You only need to take into account various technical or other parameters defined by the games' engines, mechanics and other technical specifications.
In the end all that matters is picking the most important cities/towns/castles of the period in question in the context of territorial and strategic importance. From this POV it is clear that Bohemia's most important territorial castles/towns were Praha, Hradec, Plzeň followed by Litoměřice, Žatec... and then we can use sub-regional centers like Sedlec/Loket, Kladsko, Chrudim/Čáslav and then there is obviously south Bohemia which originaly didn't have a clear center, but could use Prácheň and Doudleby for earlier medieval periods later to have them replaced by royal cities of Písek (to replace the former) and Budějovice/Budweiss to replace the latter... and obviously from late 13th century on various centers of noble families, mainly Vítkovic Rožmberk/Rosenberg and Krumlov, and Ronovic Lipá, Dubá and Falkenštejn. 14th century and later has obviously steady rise of Kutná Hora/Kuttenberg.

When talking about possibilities for CK2 duchy of Bohemia, we have max 6 provinces and the candidates are clear. If we, for some technical reasons, need to remain at 5, the distribution is clear. Praha in the center and then one for each north, south, east and west. The only questions is how to draw the borderlines. But like any setup which would have less than 20-22 administrative castellanies, reflecting the reality of high-medieval Bohemia, any borders would be artificial and any setup would have to sacrifice some kind of historical accuracy.

Just like the administrative center of Doudleby never reached areas around Prácheň or Chýnov, neither did Plzeň's influence ever reached the Elbe... and Litoměřice were never a center of gravity for Mělník or Bezděz; Hradec was never a center of gravity for Čáslav and absolutely not for anything near Mělník or Litoměřice. Žatec of Bílina->Ústí were important cities of NW Bohemia, but their influence never reached as far as Loket.
Some of those would naturally have to fall under/become parts of named provinces, some probably should not. Anyway claiming that Plzeň had no importance in Sedlecko/Loketsko is of course correct, but irrelevant at the same time, because no other suggested provincial center really had. It is all just a matter of defining artificial borders.
We can talk about parameters and to be honest, I agree with most of those you mentioned. But there is nothing like "This can't be" or "This is unacceptably inaccurate", because any of discussed options is inaccurate and artificial.

If there is no better choice, Plzeňsko reaching as far as Elbe river in NW Bohemia is no worse than Hradecko reaching the other bank of Elbe near Děčín. I can imagine pushing the Great river outside of Bohemia to enable Litoměřice cover both its banks and take the north if necessary (the centralization issues make me doubt that addition of Žatecko is good, although from other perspectives there is no doubt that it should be added).

As for the rivers, Adding Morava, fixing Labe/Elbe and Vltava are all quite possible. OTOH I frankly don't really think it is absolutely necessary to have all of the other rivers suggested. Ohře was indeed important, but is Sázava or Mže really that necessary? And why not Jizera, Lužnice or Ploučnice then? Dyje/Thaya became a border river little later, after the 12th century and is not that essential IMHO.
I understand that from purely Czech perspective, they are all important, but look at other regions and check the size of rivers present in other parts of Europe (let's ignore lands outside Europe, which have much lower level of detail). Rivers like Morava or Ohře are usually present. But not so those like Sázava or Dyje.

Despite lying in the center of Europe, Bohemia is not the center and the most important place of the world, just face it.

 

[Pernix]

I'm laughing very hard. I made the variants, one which had 6 provinces and one which had 5. The one with 5 had better overall results for Bohemia.

Yeah, with the same number of overall holdings, the duchy with less provinces performs better, what a groundbreak... I could have told you that without mod lol

You keep talking about some unreal fantasies, I am discussing conditions and possibilities which are on the table. Since you keep dreaming about your fantasies and refuse to acknowledge the reality, it is the end of discussion for me.

You are not a dev, you dont decide whats on the table, thats yours fantasy. I dont care if you talked to someone, ultimately you have no more say than anyone else, so stop being pretencious, you only make yourself look silly.

Anyway, it is more than obvious that our discussion reached a dead end and I don't see a reason why I should keep waisting my time in it.

Yeah, I guess we can at least agree on that. If you think that adding 2 or 3 provinces to Bohemia is a "fantasy", then you are really only making yourself look ridiculous. But I know the types like you. Last year I made a thread, suggesting to add a decision that would allow you to create the Archduchy of Austria (here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...t-us-create-the-archduchy-of-austria.1042841/), people also had all sorts of arguements against it, calling it an impossibility, "Archduchy cant be kingdom-tier title", "It doesnt fit into the era", "austria is too small to be kingdom-tier", "its ahistorical" etc., you can go read it yourself, ultimately there was really no reasen why it couldnt be added. Just like there is no reason why there couldnt be 2 or 3 more Bohemian provinces. Of course when the devs actually released a diary last month, announcing the Archduchy, none of those guys was arround.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

You are not a dev you dont decide whats on the table, thats yours fantasy. I dont care if you talked to someone, ultimately you have no more say than I do, so stop being pretencious, you only make yourself look silly.

Now you're making yourself look silly.

 

[Rhipeen]

@elvain I know, I even stated that the rivers I consider important are Vltava/Moldau, Labe/Elbe, Morava, Dyje/Thaya and Odra/Oder, I even said the reasons why I think so, for other rivers I stated only "could be added"

As far as county borders go, I am more the estetic type of guy, so I would still prefer those 6+4 even if it could bring some centralization problems.

That reminds me, will Lusatia be added as 2 province duchy or 1 county as a part of other duchy while looking not as it does rn? Just interested because my potential "Corona Regni Bohemiae" realm of Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia and Lusatia.

 

[elvain]

@elvain I know, I even stated that the rivers I consider important are Vltava/Moldau, Labe/Elbe, Morava, Dyje/Thaya and Odra/Oder, I even said the reasons why I think so, for other rivers I stated only "could be added"

As far as county borders go, I am more the estetic type of guy, so I would still prefer those 6+4 even if it could bring some centralization problems.

That reminds me, will Lusatia be added as 2 province duchy or 1 county as a part of other duchy while looking not as it does rn? Just interested because my potential "Corona Regni Bohemiae" realm of Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia and Lusatia.

I agree that it would be more neat with Žatecko, but I'm really worried it might not get there in the end.

I can't say for Lusatia. The region was borderland between Meissen, Bohemia and Silesia and each of those played importsnt role. Just keep in mind that the things you are mentioning happened after the last CK2 bookmark and are not that relevant from wider perspective. The region may be separate duchy, but may also fall under generally more important Meissen.

 

[Rhipeen]

@elvain ye I know, I am just asking if you perhaps knew how it looks, I dont care if it will be duchy or just county, just that it has the right shape.
its like those guys playing as england and want to conquer India, or those that want to unite germany as german Prussia (both didnt happen in ck2 time period but they still wanted to do it, same with me except that mine kinda did happen in ck2 time period because Charles IV who created that term died before the year 1400, 1378 to be exact)
And if you made Bohemia weaker by accident because of centralization not working out, it would way around kinda copy the historical situation of Bohemia where it wasnt that some strong nobles who didnt listen to the king, but all the small nobles piled up (wanting to become stronger seeing average german noble would be realms) generating unrest nevertheless.

 

[Atalvyr]

Ignoring for a moment all the "noise" in this thread from those not interested in debate:

Would you add new building slot along with added holdings in KoB, or would you just fill up the slots already there? The first option would make the kingdom stay powerful in the lategame when new holdings have been built and upgraded, while the second option would cap the power of the kingdom to somewhere close to where it is now, just starting it off at a higher power level.

From a gameplay perspective, I would prefer for there to still be some "room to grow", but the added holding slots at early dates might make the Premyslids significantly more powerful, as they start of as tribal with +50% levies per empty holding slot.

 

[elvain]

Ignoring for a moment all the "noise" in this thread from those not interested in debate:

Would you add new building slot along with added holdings in KoB, or would you just fill up the slots already there? The first option would make the kingdom stay powerful in the lategame when new holdings have been built and upgraded, while the second option would cap the power of the kingdom to somewhere close to where it is now, just starting it off at a higher power level.

From a gameplay perspective, I would prefer for there to still be some "room to grow", but the added holding slots at early dates might make the Premyslids significantly more powerful, as they start of as tribal with +50% levies per empty holding slot.

Both filling the slots already in place and adding/increasing the cap.

I agree that it could make Premyslids too powerfull in the first start dates. That could, however, be solved by granting one tribal provice to some vasal in 769 and 867, which would anyway be also historically accuate. Before Boleslav I. the Přemyslids did not completely hold everything and there still existed local tribal* princes

* earlier Czech historians thought them to be princes of 14 tribes, but recent research proved this theory to be wrong and explains it as minor princes of Bohemians, who were in subjected position towards Přemyslids.

PS: sorry for the "noise". Problem hopefully solved