Fix central european borders

[Rhipeen]

Please fix, those borders, especially the Bohemian ones (being native it hurts my eyes), I am suprised that for the entire existence of this game those borders havent been fixed. Here are some of things that are wrong with Bohemia on bordering provinces:

Praha is on the other side of Elbe on the river Moldau (Vltava)
Hradec was never part of Moravia (speaking about duchies, not Great Moravia)
Znojmo on the other hand was always part of Moravia and never bordered Danube
Hradec is north of Boleslav (and much more east)
Plzen is to the east of Domazlice
The whole borders are moved to the east, Vltava (Moldau) that is on the map was always whole under Bohemia and Elbe flows out of bohemia near the northernmost part, not the westernmost
Lusatia was more east (Elbe reason above)
Greater Poland never had an apendix over Silesia

Since we never had much specified areas like the rest of not rome influenced europe, here are some maps from 13th and 15th centuries, where you can see the rivers and important cities on the first one, and administration on the second one. The administration of Moravia on that map is from Premyslid times, ck2 period, and the Bohemian one was done during the reign of Charles IV Bohemian king and HRE emperor who made local nobilities centered around important cities (end of ck2 period and the closest you can get to some administration map).

 

[Woifee]

Most likely the damn Habsburgs. The only other option would be another Přemyslid, but...

Habsburg ex machina.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

Habsburg ex machina.

Don't tell me you like those swiss occupiers.

 

[Woifee]

Don't tell me you like those swiss occupiers.

In RL i couldn’t care less about them. In CK2 I like to play with them tough.

 

[Rhipeen]

Habsburg rise to power is one of the most ironic thinks to happen to Bohemia...
Hey we dont want strong emperor (Premysl Otakar II iron and golden king, iron meaning his rule (or referencing železní páni = "iron men" = czech name for heavy cav)) and definitely not an emperor that is not a german (Premysl Otakar II iron and golden king is czech), so lets choose that one insignificant alpine nobody, what could possibly go wrong?
That aside it would be cool if we got that nickname into the game.

 

[Woifee]

Habsburg rise to power is one of the most ironic thinks to happen to Bohemia...
Hey we dont want strong emperor (Premysl Otakar II iron and golden king, iron meaning his rule (or referencing železní páni = "iron men" = czech name for heavy cav)) and definitely not an emperor that is not a german (Premysl Otakar II iron and golden king is czech), so lets choose that one insignificant alpine nobody, what could possibly go wrong?
That aside it would be cool if we got that nickname into the game.

Yeah, RNGesus was in favor of the Habsburgs

 

[Ruwaard]

Habsburg rise to power is one of the most ironic thinks to happen to Bohemia...
Hey we dont want strong emperor (Premysl Otakar II iron and golden king, iron meaning his rule (or referencing železní páni = "iron men" = czech name for heavy cav)) and definitely not an emperor that is not a german (Premysl Otakar II iron and golden king is czech), so lets choose that one insignificant alpine nobody, what could possibly go wrong?
That aside it would be cool if we got that nickname into the game.

It made very much sense from the position of the other powerful princes. The Habsburgs (Rudolf) as later the Luxembourgs (Henry VII) only turned out to be more talented than they expected.
Breaking up the territories gained by Ottokar II, was something the other princes did not mind at all, now Rudolf did need to take a lot of effort to let him invest his sons with the most valuable of those seized territories, the duchies of Austria & Styria. In that sense the Habsburgs managed to replace the Babenbergs, returning to the situation before the Great Interregnum, was preferred by the other Princes.

In that sense what I like about the Habsburgs in game, can also be applied to the (Limburg-)Luxembourgs, exactly that they managed to rise from counts to dukes or in the case of the latter even kings (both were occasionally elected as ruler of the HRE as well).
Another reason I do not dislike the Habsburgs is more something of the EU IV with Maximilian of Austria & Mary the Rich of Burgundy (they helped to protect the Burgundian Netherlands against France) and of course Charles V.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

they helped to protect the Burgundian Netherlands against France

If you call cultural and religious oppression protecting someone...

 

[Ruwaard]

If you call cultural and religious oppression protecting someone...

France was a much bigger threat for the Low Countries back then, culturally they would have potentially be a threat for the Dutch speaking regions. As for religion, that was complex, this divided the region, with or without the involvement of the sovereign.

Let's agree to disagree and get back the original topic of this thread.

 

[Rhipeen]

So lets make a summary what we somewhat agreed on:
Higher or upped centralisation law for Bohemia
5-6 counties for Bohemia duchy while 3-4 for Moravia (numbers still discussed)
and a cherry at the top of the dort would be Premyslid bloodline and "Iron and Golden King" nickname

counties discussed: Moravia is historicaly clear: Znojmo, Brno, Olomouc and maybe Opava if 4 provinces.
Bohemia is the harder one, Prague, Hradec, Pilsen, Litoměřice and Domažlice? are 5 but having the borders of them as in the picture provided on the first page of this thread is a big NO

Vltava (Moldau) river has still not been moved inside czech borders. Its should be more to the north.
Same problem with Elbe, it should be more to the north its too deep into Bohemia, rl Elbe tends to be with the northern border

Pilsen area never controled any territory near Elbe that would be Litoměřice county, the city itself lays on the river, bunch of territories Pilsen should have is taken by Domažlice county, Prague county just looks funny (my personal opinion) and other weird things, I personaly would go for 6+4 counties and maxed out the centralization + making there enough holdings, since the area to the west of elbe and north of Prague + Pilsen is weird, I would add the last province there and named it Žatecko, it could look kinda like this, Elbe would become big viking river at the point where it flows down together with Vltava

 

[Woifee]

France was a much bigger threat for the Low Countries back then, culturally they would have potentially be a threat for the Dutch speaking regions. As for religion, that was complex, this divided the region, with or without the involvement of the sovereign.

Let's agree to disagree and get back the original topic of this thread.

The best Habsburg appeared in 30 Rock.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

So lets make a summary what we somewhat agreed on:
Higher or upped centralisation law for Bohemia
5-6 counties for Bohemia duchy while 3-4 for Moravia (numbers still discussed)
and a cherry at the top of the dort would be Premyslid bloodline and "Iron and Golden King" nickname

counties discussed: Moravia is historicaly clear: Znojmo, Brno, Olomouc and maybe Opava if 4 provinces.
Bohemia is the harder one, Prague, Hradec, Pilsen, Litoměřice and Domažlice? are 5 but having the borders of them as in the picture provided on the first page of this thread is a big NO

Vltava (Moldau) river has still not been moved inside czech borders. Its should be more to the north.
Same problem with Elbe, it should be more to the north its too deep into Bohemia, rl Elbe tends to be with the northern border

Pilsen area never controled any territory near Elbe that would be Litoměřice county, the city itself lays on the river, bunch of territories Pilsen should have is taken by Domažlice county, Prague county just looks funny (my personal opinion) and other weird things, I personaly would go for 6+4 counties and maxed out the centralization + making there enough holdings, since the area to the west of elbe and north of Prague + Pilsen is weird, I would add the last province there and named it Žatecko, it could look kinda like this, Elbe would become big viking river at the point where it flows down together with Vltava

I'd include these rivers: Berounka, Vltava, Labe, Sázava, Morava, Dyje, Odra. None of them navigable.

 

[Rhipeen]

I'd include these rivers: Berounka, Vltava, Labe, Sázava, Morava, Dyje, Odra. None of them navigable.

Considering that many relatively important rivers arent on the map, that number is a tad bit high (I agree with Odra/Oder tho, pretty important, I just forgot to draw it in) so the rivers I would include would be Vltava/Moldau, Labe/Elbe, Morava river for obv reasons, Dyje/Thaya because its basicaly the border between Austria and Moravia, and Odra/Oder which would also make a partial border of Opava county, talking about counties...
I would stick Cheb area to Žatecko instead of Plzeň/Pilsen, like in my map, overall I personaly think that my rough sketch looks better in that aspect, adding fifth county Přerovsko to Moravia is also kinda far fetched, for both historical and balance reasons.

I made a new map with all possible bigger rivers that I think could be important enough, Mountains, and possible counties, I am still conflicted about Přerovsko tho

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

Considering that many relatively important rivers arent on the map, that number is a tad bit high (I agree with Odra/Oder tho, pretty important, I just forgot to draw it in) so the rivers I would include would be Vltava/Moldau, Labe/Elbe, Morava river for obv reasons, Dyje/Thaya because its basicaly the border between Austria and Moravia, and Odra/Oder which would also make a partial border of Opava county, talking about counties...
I would stick Cheb area to Žatecko instead of Plzeň/Pilsen, like in my map, overall I personaly think that my rough sketch looks better in that aspect, adding fifth county Přerovsko to Moravia is also kinda far fetched, for both historical and balance reasons.

I made a new map with all possible bigger rivers that I think could be important enough, Mountains, and possible counties, I am still conflicted about Přerovsko tho

Well, Přerovsko could be entirely annexed by Olomouc I suppose, as long as Brno and Olomouc got a holding each.

 

[Rhipeen]

Well, Přerovsko could be entirely annexed by Olomouc I suppose, as long as Brno and Olomouc got a holding each.

It could go like this:
Praha 7hold (main + 6) ... 7
Plzeň, Hradec, Olomouc and Brno 6hold ... 31
Litoměřice 5hold ... 36
Žatecko, Domažlice, Znojmo and Opava 4hold ... 52 possible holdings in total

hmmmmmmmmmmmm, my historical knowledge isnt exactly huge to tell which counties should get how many holds tho

 

[Rhipeen]

propably would be better to ask @elvain

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

It could go like this:
Praha 7hold (main + 6) ... 7
Plzeň, Hradec, Olomouc and Brno 6hold ... 31
Litoměřice 5hold ... 36
Žatecko, Domažlice, Znojmo and Opava 4hold ... 52 possible holdings in total

hmmmmmmmmmmmm, my historical knowledge isnt exactly huge to tell which counties should get how many holds tho

You probably meant Doudleby (not Domažlice) I'd consider giving them 5. Brno should have just 5 (6 is too much), Plzeň 4 and Opava 3. Oh and Hradec should probably have just 5 as well.

 

[Rhipeen]

You probably meant Doudleby (not Domažlice) I'd consider giving them 5. Brno should have just 5 (6 is too much), Plzeň 4 and Opava 3. Oh and Hradec should probably have just 5 as well.

No I meant Domažlice, look on the first page of this thread on the screenshot how those provinces look atm, the county is named Domažlice and we kinda work with that since that area was underdeveloped and without any bigger cities . The problem we are discussing here is how to make Bohemia comparable to Hungary and Poland, because these countries were comparable to each other at the time. other problem is power compared to total austrian archduchy territories should it ever form, having too little holdings will cause problems and having too much counties also causes problems. Read the whole thread if you havent, there was even heated argument about it.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

No I meant Domažlice, look on the first page of this thread on the screenshot how those provinces look atm, the county is named Domažlice and we kinda work with that since that area was underdeveloped and without any bigger cities . The problem we are discussing here is how to make Bohemia comparable to Hungary and Poland, because these countries were comparable to each other at the time. other problem is power compared to total austrian archduchy territories should it ever form, having too little holdings will cause problems and having too much counties also causes problems. Read the whole thread if you havent, there was even heated argument about it.

I have indeed read the whole thing, I'm pretty sure Doudleby is better than Domažlice. As Domažlice are under Plzeň and were not even as important as Doudleby for example. I am aware of the arguments, as I was essentially one side in the argument about Austria.
Oh, and which map exactly do you mean? There's more of them.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

If you meant the.map from the stream, then Domažlice is a mistake in there and what I am trying to do is correct mistakes like these.

 

[Rhipeen]

If you meant the.map from the stream, then Domažlice is a mistake in there and what I am trying to do is correct mistakes like these.

Ok ok, welp, I still stand behind my borders suggestion (not with Přerovsko).
Back to holding limit, since a provinces in unhospitable Tibet can have 6 holdings, why shouldnt we boost holdings of Bohemia to better reflect its historical strenght? (aside from the fact it could look little weird on certain maps like the total holdings map)