Fix central european borders

[Rhipeen]

Please fix, those borders, especially the Bohemian ones (being native it hurts my eyes), I am suprised that for the entire existence of this game those borders havent been fixed. Here are some of things that are wrong with Bohemia on bordering provinces:

Praha is on the other side of Elbe on the river Moldau (Vltava)
Hradec was never part of Moravia (speaking about duchies, not Great Moravia)
Znojmo on the other hand was always part of Moravia and never bordered Danube
Hradec is north of Boleslav (and much more east)
Plzen is to the east of Domazlice
The whole borders are moved to the east, Vltava (Moldau) that is on the map was always whole under Bohemia and Elbe flows out of bohemia near the northernmost part, not the westernmost
Lusatia was more east (Elbe reason above)
Greater Poland never had an apendix over Silesia

Since we never had much specified areas like the rest of not rome influenced europe, here are some maps from 13th and 15th centuries, where you can see the rivers and important cities on the first one, and administration on the second one. The administration of Moravia on that map is from Premyslid times, ck2 period, and the Bohemian one was done during the reign of Charles IV Bohemian king and HRE emperor who made local nobilities centered around important cities (end of ck2 period and the closest you can get to some administration map).

 

[elvain]

Yes, Central Europe and Bohemia in particular certainly do nees to have their borders fixed and several recent dev diaries have already shown that something is going to happen there. Some of us, like me and @Wenceslaus II. have also shared some sources with the devs to help them make Bohemia as accurate as possible.
You can check one of several discussions about improving Bohemia here, there are for instance also several maps, wgich are more appropriate for the period than the one you posted, btw the regions of Bohemia on the map you posted are not from Charles IV.'s era, but about a century later, so afťer the end of CK2 period, and I and few others think it is more accurate to base the division on Přemyslid castellanies of 11th-12th centuries and I made a map which tries to give them probable or approximate borders, since academic sources obviously can't do that because they have to be based on facts and not assumption or approximations...

And lastly, there is also ongoing dicsussion about improvements of Bohemia in the most recend dev diary thread about Splendid Scandinavia in which I and @nestorius dispute whether Bohemia should have more provinces or even additional duchy (his idea with which I strongly disagree) or not.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

From what I could see in todays DD its looking rather well. Not perfect, but they said 6 provinces per duchy max, so it probably couldn't be much better.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

I did this just now, took me a while to find a map of Premysl Ottakar's regional system, but I think I've found a good compromise between historical accuracy and devs' rules on duchy size.

 

[Woifee]

Since Bohemias neighbours north and south get an Map overhaul Boehmia will most likely too get one. Germany most likely gets an overhaul too.

 

[elvain]

I did this just now, took me a while to find a map of Premysl Ottakar's regional system, but I think I've found a good compromise between historical accuracy and devs' rules on duchy size.

Good looking map. Where did you get it, I can't google it.... do you have original?

As for the provinces themselves, I think Moravia has too many... and Valašsko definitely should not be called this way. It is called Valašsko after colonists from Romanian Wallachia in the 16th century... and as not being expert on Morsvian etnography, I'm not very sure about Haná. I believe that Olomoucko as the name of the most important Přemyslid principality in Moravia should be totally ok

Also Kroměříž was anything but inportant in the early/high middle ages, so it certainly should not be a provincial center.
Actually I think these 2 provinces could be merged or divided into Olomoucko and Brněnsko

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

Good looking map. Where did you get it, I can't google it.... do you have original?

I'll send you a link in a while, it took me forever to find it, but it was worth it.

I think Moravia has too many... and Valašsko definitely should not be called this way. It is called Valašsko after colonists from Romanian Wallachia in the 16th century...

Yeah, you're right there, it just would've been more interresting.

I'm not very sure about Haná. I believe that Olomoucko as the name of the most important Přemyslid principality in Moravia should be totally ok

Same as above.

Also Kroměříž was anything but inportant in the early/high middle ages, so it certainly should not be a provincial center.

Yeah, you're right again, that's just my patriotism taking control.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

@elvain Just messed with it a little.
Here is the link, plus some more I found with it, apparently they're from a book called Děje království Českého from Josef Kalousek and Josef Brož, I'll probably buy it, if I can find it somewhere:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historická_mapa_-_Země_koruny_české_od_časů_Karla_IV_do_války_třicetileté.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historická_mapa_-_Čechy_a_Morava_za_zřízení_župního_ve_XII_století.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historická_mapa_-_Říše_česká_za_knížete_Boleslava_II_okolo_roku_973.jpg
EDIT: Oops, wrong file, fixed.

 

[Fire6all]

I'm giving my support, nothing to add

 

[elvain]

@elvain Just messed with it a little.
Here is the link, plus some more I found with it, apparently they're from a book called Děje království Českého from Josef Kalousek and Josef Brož, I'll probably buy it, if I can find it somewhere:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historická_mapa_-_Země_koruny_české_od_časů_Karla_IV_do_války_třicetileté.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historická_mapa_-_Čechy_a_Morava_za_zřízení_župního_ve_XII_století.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historická_mapa_-_Říše_česká_za_knížete_Boleslava_II_okolo_roku_973.jpg
EDIT: Oops, wrong file, fixed.

Thanks for the source. It's a book written in 1898 by V. V. Tomek and...Czech National Library has it as e-book for 200 CZK, so it's not that hard to obtain it....
However, I'm quite sceptical about sources from this period. I would definitely not take the borders and even many of the places on that map for granted or reliable. The map was painted in period when some historians, especially the national ones like V. V. Tomek didn't hesitate to take some liberties to do things as they thought or wanted them to be, despite not having any scientific evidence.
For instance the borders of those castellanies, or as Tomek and authors of that map call them župy, don't take into account that some parts of the country were either uninhabited or not really administered by Přemyslid authorities... or that various castles had different functions and not all of them were administrative centers, many were just border fortresses etc.
For instance, looking at some provinces like no.7 - which is around Rakovník with center in Přemyslid castle of Zbečno - make me very doubtful about reliability of this map at all.
It is pretty certain that a small castle like Zbečno did not administer places like Blšany, although the map make Blšany part of that župa. Between Blšany and Zbečno there still is pretty hard terrain and at that time, there was a deep forest, while Blšany naturaly lean towards Žatec. And you can find many other such examples throughout the map.

With all due respect to historians of Tomek's format, I take historians like Žemlička or Klápště and their maps of Přemyslid castellanies a lot more reliable.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

I take historians like Žemlička or Klápště and their maps of Přemyslid castellanies a lot more reliable.

Do you have some of their maps? Because I couldn't find anything else. As for the source credibility, I'd say it doesn't matter too much in this case.

 

[elvain]

Do you have some of their maps? Because I couldn't find anything else. As for the source credibility, I'd say it doesn't matter too much in this case.

I mostly have them in books which I don't currently have with myself, but for instance this map is a version of the one used in Žemlička's books.

And I think this map is by Klápště, though I'm not 100% sure

As for Tomek's reliability: He was great historian in his time, but he's a historian of his time, when main reason for writing history books was spreading the glory of the Czech nation, often despite facts... and modern historians have disprover or refuted many claims of that generation.
Basically, as for reliability of that map, it often works with legendary or semi-legendary places and puts them there, it doesn't count real accessibility of various places and often puts the borderline somewhere quite arbitrarily, regardless the clusters of settlements as they were researched by archaeologists.

I really don't trust that map from that Tomek's book at all Though it is still a valuable source for further research

 

[elvain]

As for the source credibility, I'd say it doesn't matter too much in this case.

To add to my previous post, I must admit, though, that I am a little (or rather heavily) biased against any historical sources from the era of Czech national awakening. I consider them no more credible than medieval legends and myths. They are good sources for further critical research, but they often speak more about their own time period than about the period they are describing.

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

To add to my previous post, I must admit, though, that I am a little (or rather heavily) biased against any historical sources from the era of Czech national awakening. I consider them no more credible than medieval legends and myths. They are good sources for further critical research, but they often speak more about their own time period than about the period they are describing.

Well, like I said, the fact that a village is under a different village, than it should be is not important for the game. Maybe it'll matter in CK3, but not now. It'd probably be best if the devs just used your map from HIP.

 

[Rhipeen]

@Wenceslaus II. Yes, that one with 4 counties for Moravia and 6 for Bohemia looks amazing (even though I am little conflicted about the name Litoměřicko considering the position of cities, Boleslavsko would be better) and I also thing that Sedlec would be better under Žatecko instead of Plzeňsko considering the history and position + german colonization of borders (combining czech names and english hurts), I was just hurt that the map for our provinces looks so horrifying that I found what I could and posted a request/suggestion

 

[Wenceslaus II.]

@Wenceslaus II. Yes, that one with 4 counties for Moravia and 6 for Bohemia looks amazing (even though I am little conflicted about the name Litoměřicko considering the position of cities, Boleslavsko would be better) and I also thing that Sedlec would be better under Žatecko instead of Plzeňsko considering the history and position + german colonization of borders (combining czech names and english hurts), I was just hurt that the map for our provinces looks so horrifying that I found what I could and posted a request/suggestion

Yeah, I feel you. Thanks btw. You may have a point about Boleslavsko.

 

[elvain]

@Wenceslaus II. Yes, that one with 4 counties for Moravia and 6 for Bohemia looks amazing (even though I am little conflicted about the name Litoměřicko considering the position of cities, Boleslavsko would be better) and I also thing that Sedlec would be better under Žatecko instead of Plzeňsko considering the history and position + german colonization of borders (combining czech names and english hurts), I was just hurt that the map for our provinces looks so horrifying that I found what I could and posted a request/suggestion

Boleslavsko would make sense from georgaphic point, but Litoměřice was far more important than Boleslav and it was actually administrative center for the region. Strategic castle which was second to third most important Přemyslid castle/city in Bohemia.

I agree about Sedlec/Loket belonging more to Žatecko than to Plzeňsko

 

[Pernix]

I definitely agree that something should be done about the Bohemian borders, at the current state its quite poor and when I saw Bohemia in the upcoming patch, it doesnt look any better, unfortunately. I dont know if you guys have seen the full intended new look of Bohemia, the screenshot on dev diaries doesnt quite show all of it, so I took a screenshot from Holy Fury showcase gameplay.

This would be the new composition, which might be worse than the old one tbh. Also as you can see Bohemia still has only 8 provinces in total, while pretty much every other region on the map has been buffed at some point. In this patch specifically, Poland, Austria, Baltics, and parts of Germany have been reworked the most, from what I saw. This leaves Bohemia neglected and underpowered, compared to its historical strenght and significance in this time period. Ideally the duchy of Bohemia would have 6 counties and the duchy of Moravia would have 5, for a total of 11, which would put the balance of powers in Central Europe closer to what it was historically.

 

[Woifee]

Maybe they increased the number of Holdings.

 

[Pernix]

Maybe they increased the number of Holdings.

Maybe, but tbh I doubt that they would go through the trouble just to add a couple of holdings. Even if they did, a couple of holdings (or free holding spots) wont make a diference. If they added 3 new counties, each with 3 subholdings, and then added a coule of holdings between the old counties, that would make more of a sense.

A couple of holdings alone wont resolve the problem of Bohemia being well underpowered, compared to its historical strenght in the region, once the patch is implemented. Poland is going to receive 6 new counties, the Austrian duchies (Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Tyrol) will get a bunch more and Bavaria will receive some as well. I have nothing against the changes as such, but if Paradox wants to renovate central Europe and give everyone more provinces, they should not skip over Bohemia like its not there!