Im pretty sure its better for me to feed everything to the Constantinople node where I hold 90% of total trade power
First WC attempt
- Thread starter Kagerou.Echo.三葉
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Collecting everywhere early and mid-game may be marginally more profitable (and certainly is easier to administer), but once you have sufficient trade power (i.e., monopolies or near monopolies) everywhere it is more profitable to steer. In my Humanist Ottoblob game (which I keep putting on hold, because WC does get tedious), in 1727, when everything is set to steer to Constantinople (collecting only there and in Zanzibar), my trade income is 1,146 ducats per month, but if I reconfigure to collect everywhere, trade income drops to 945 ducats per month.
Of course, both 1,146 and 945 are ridiculous amounts that I can't possibly outspend (even with mercs out the ear and spamming manufactories in the lowest of low-dev territories), but 945 is still 20+% less.
Of course, both 1,146 and 945 are ridiculous amounts that I can't possibly outspend (even with mercs out the ear and spamming manufactories in the lowest of low-dev territories), but 945 is still 20+% less.
This still seems pretty slow. What exactly is slowing you down? AE? Coring? You should be using vassals to keep down OE and take more warscore with reconquest claims. You should at least be into East Africa by now, have your 3 TCs for the age bonus, and probably have a bigger chunk of India (although... that might be different from my 1.22 progress below if India has more time to get consolidate....).
Your ideas are fine, but I'm not sure I would've picked Aristo (I'd fill with infl/explo/quantity instead) and I'd chose influence before diplomatic most of the time.
Also, why are you culture converting? And why are you improving relations with someone you're spying on and already have -156?
Here's a progress shot of my first WC attempt @ 1599 (soon to be completed successfully), for comparison. I had 4708 dev, twice yours. I was also Ottos, but went Coptic. This is from 1.22, but by that point I think the difference between the starts should be small. Afghanistan (not an optimal pick, but they didn't fill out their ICC ambition, so it turned out ok) and Marehan are vassals (using a release-and-reconquest strategy). Spain (who integrated Naples) and Aragon are under PUs.
Collecting vs. steering is highly variable and I think it has a lot to do with exactly how people expand. I know @bly08 has plenty of examples of when collecting everywhere is the right move, but I think that has a lot to do with his (mindblowingly-impressive) style and pace. To expand that fast, you have to focus on continually opening up new fronts and probably have a decent amount of TP everywhere, but you still might not have finished off all the little nations nipping away at your wealth/power. Collecting everywhere (high value with high TP) is the best in this case because any steerage will cause significant loss of income.
In contrast, when I blob, I find I try to balance opening up new fronts and consolidating TP (also containment and taking forts, but that's outside the scope of trade) when deciding who to war/which provinces to take. This tends to leave me with pretty strong trade networks (chains of 90% -100% control) which allow some steering along the way to prevent trade from leaking & gain the steering bonus. Depending on how many merchants I have, I find the best option is some mix of steering (especially when you can "steal" TP when transferring countries don't have merchants) and collecting at key nodes (usually where I have high TP that prevents trade from leaving the network).
I think the best advice is that trade is highly variable and quite dynamic, so you really just have to try a couple different options.
Your ideas are fine, but I'm not sure I would've picked Aristo (I'd fill with infl/explo/quantity instead) and I'd chose influence before diplomatic most of the time.
Also, why are you culture converting? And why are you improving relations with someone you're spying on and already have -156?
Here's a progress shot of my first WC attempt @ 1599 (soon to be completed successfully), for comparison. I had 4708 dev, twice yours. I was also Ottos, but went Coptic. This is from 1.22, but by that point I think the difference between the starts should be small. Afghanistan (not an optimal pick, but they didn't fill out their ICC ambition, so it turned out ok) and Marehan are vassals (using a release-and-reconquest strategy). Spain (who integrated Naples) and Aragon are under PUs.
Collecting vs. steering is highly variable and I think it has a lot to do with exactly how people expand. I know @bly08 has plenty of examples of when collecting everywhere is the right move, but I think that has a lot to do with his (mindblowingly-impressive) style and pace. To expand that fast, you have to focus on continually opening up new fronts and probably have a decent amount of TP everywhere, but you still might not have finished off all the little nations nipping away at your wealth/power. Collecting everywhere (high value with high TP) is the best in this case because any steerage will cause significant loss of income.
In contrast, when I blob, I find I try to balance opening up new fronts and consolidating TP (also containment and taking forts, but that's outside the scope of trade) when deciding who to war/which provinces to take. This tends to leave me with pretty strong trade networks (chains of 90% -100% control) which allow some steering along the way to prevent trade from leaking & gain the steering bonus. Depending on how many merchants I have, I find the best option is some mix of steering (especially when you can "steal" TP when transferring countries don't have merchants) and collecting at key nodes (usually where I have high TP that prevents trade from leaving the network).
I think the best advice is that trade is highly variable and quite dynamic, so you really just have to try a couple different options.
I think you're on the slow side too. The main advantage the Ottomans have is that you can break through stalemates easy as you can expand into any direction. Try to get some alliances with majors in Europe which slows coalitions from forming even further. Your economy can carry a huge army. Be really agressive at the start and get started on quantity fast. From the very start, most of the time you need to be in multiple expansion wars, unless you obviously fight someone stronger than usual (first Mamluk war for example). The early problem of the Ottomans is manpower. I recommend you hire some mercs at the start to save yourself the manpower and to keep the strength to keep fighting wars. Release nations with cores to feed them, which means you can take even more land (Overextension problems and you save yourself AE). As long as the Christians don't coalition you, you should be fine.
Good stuff, I found it interesting to compare to my first WC which finished in 1768 and One Faithed in 1820. I had 3508 development and had avoided PUs and Vassals on purpose to make it simpler. Though to be honest I dont understand gaining PUs despite trying to read atwix guide multiple times.
Im also coptic, but have not been avoiding AE accumulation at this point except on europe-been routinely fighting coalitions consisting of every nearby nation and wont become strong enough to prevent their formation until 1640s IIRC. Its necessary to collect with merchants as I cannot funnel the trade to constantinople in this situation. Your 1599 situation is quite nice indeed with convenient PU, and more consistent solid borders. Ming however is already dead in my game though I wouldnt expect you to have any trouble with them. What is your military situation there? I have 261\306 forcelimit with a 39 ducat surplus at that moment. Looks like you have 257/? in that screenshot. I went Quantity\Religious\Humanist\Administrative in that order, currently have admin lvl3
you lose your reconquest cores by 1.24 and its slightly easier to get coalitioned so its very different
Hehe. Yes, my results were from 1.22, but I had about 2k more dev than the OP at 1600. I admit I haven't tried the newer patches yet, but I don't think they would amount to that difference. @Cataphract887 1.24 run and roughly 1k difference with mine seems closer to what you would expect in the later vs earlier patches.
The answer to most "Can I WC from here?" posts is usually "Yes, if you're experienced." It's not the work that needs to be done that's most telling, it's the progress shown up to that point. In both of the runs the OP has shown, his expansion seems a bit on the slow side. I was being sincere asking "What's holding you back?" because I think he needs to be a bit more aggressive.
My gut feeling is that you would make a bit more money if you transfer trade bengal to ceylon to Goa, since you almost fully control those node.
I just tried it, but the income gained went down slightly because I only have 68% of Goa even though the other nations in it are tiny