First time in contact with the Ilkhanate... not historically accurate...

[aceofknaves]

So Ive never played in contact with either mongol power before. I am attracted to England/France/Sicily/Spain and trying really hard start scenarios. I have always liked jerusalem but found the situation almost hopeless. This time I did great and have a tidy Arabian Empire.... and freaked out when I saw a 150k stack running around from the ilkhanate.
My thought was immediately... this is the opposite of what the mongols were all about.
The mongolian armies were almost always outnumbered during this time period.
1241 Battle of Legnica(invasion of poland) Mongol Empire 8-20k vs Poland, HRE, military orders 25-60k outcome... crushing mongol victory
1241 Battle of Mohi(invasion of Hungary) Mongol Empire 70k or 25-30k vs Hungary and Military orders 80k or 25k outcome, crushing mongol victory
1243 Battle of Kose Dag(Mongol attack on Rum Turks) Mongol Empire 30k vs Rum with assorted allies 80k Decisive Mongol Victory
1260 Battle of Ain Jalut (Mongol attack into Egyptian Levant) Mongol Empire 20k vs Mamluks 20k Outcome, Decisive Mamluk victory

The simple fact was that they were unstoppable soldiers/commanders, not that they had huge doomstacks with no attrition. In fact the battle of ain jalut and the campaign in Syria vs the Mamluks was deeply affected by the fact that the Mongols needed to use nothern syria for grazing land as the region did not have ample grazing land for a concentrated all cavalry army.

Beyond this I was also wondering if the Golden horde and Ilkhanate ever fight one another... because they did. In 1262 they had open war, and we constantly threatening one another, which kept their expansion in check. This especially became the case when they allied regional powers, the most prominent being the alliance of the Mamluks and the Golden Horde, in order to check enemy expansion.

So in summary
1. Mongol Armies were not larger than their enemies, but better fighters and commanders.
2. Mongol Armies did not have magical attrition fighting abilities.
3. Mongols fought mongols and made moves to check one anothers' expansion


are there glaring discrepancies due simply to the desire to try and replicate the power of the mongols without the capability of making them smart or strong enough?
Does anyone know if there are plans to amend these historical holes? or have ideas on how to do so?

My only thoughts would be maybe to cut the attrition exemptions, give them an event where they fight centered upon the original outbreak of hostilities, and give them seriously powerful cultural/racial bonuses in command and combat ability.

 

[Jeltz]

I strongly agree with you here. I have always disliked when the AI "cheats" to be able to be dangerous. I would like attrition to apply equally to everyone. I like the fact that Mongols were outnumbered in most battles since that means attrition can be left as is and mongol commanders and units just be improved.

 

[Warlord Skorr]

Beyond this I was also wondering if the Golden horde and Ilkhanate ever fight one another... because they did. In 1262 they had open war, and we constantly threatening one another, which kept their expansion in check. This especially became the case when they allied regional powers, the most prominent being the alliance of the Mamluks and the Golden Horde, in order to check enemy expansion.

While I agree with your main argument, the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate do fight each other in game. In every one of my games in fact, with one ending with the Ilkhanate confined to the Caucasus Mountains.
I don't think Paradox should patch the game making them fight each otherall the time. Even if they did historically, I'd like other possibilities to be able to play out.

The Mongols were also very exceptional at foraging and supplying their armies in real life, so some method of limiting attrition would be fine by me. Not the current immunity though; perhaps +5K to Supply Limit?

 

[Ols]

The Golden Horde and the Ilkhante both fight over Khwarizm and Khiva constantly, if they have nothing else to do. I'd agree that they should have less men and better commanders, but they should also not replace the cultures of very many, if any, counties they conquer and they should leave the local culture in control as vassals except possibly in the first Kingdom they conquer (Khiva/Khwarizm). A stack of 10k attrition free could be considered fair, but only if it was summoned by an event and disappeared again after a while, returning back to the Steppes. I'd also be happy if the Mongols did not absorb things de jure, as I've often seen the Russian and Persian Empires broken apart by their de jure shift. By combining all these things coupled with powerful events that break their hordes apart when dissent emerges, it could become part of a healthy gameplan to surrender to the Horde, then break free a generation or two later when their armies no longer comprise unstoppable deathstacks. (It would also seem to fit more with the way the Golden Horde and Ilkhanate appear in later start points in the game, such as with Russian vassals in Russia and Persian ones in Persia.

 

[Jeltz]

Mongols also should demand that you become a tributary before they invade when you refuse. They did so against several rulers, so that option should be in the game too.

 

[Ols]

Agreed. But if they did this to small duchies and counties in Russia or Persia then they'd all give in really easily. Maybe there should be some mechanic whereby a nearby independent realm can intercede and try to create a coalition to stop the Horde. I can imagine them approaching realms one by one and each realm not caring in the slightest until they're forced to submit.

 

[Zlefin]

i'd say the real problem is that the horde doesn't get good enoguh commanders; they should get good/great commanders; and the khans should be AWESOME. I haven't looked to see what timur's actual stats are in game, (or any of the khan's) by looking at later historical starts; but some of them should have scary awesome combat stats (those also have to mean something, as leader stats have been weak in thsi game) aka, mil of 30+ with lots of the trait that boost combat.

 

[Ols]

Just checked my Roman Empire save, in the last save I can see Timur alive in he had 26 martial with the 4 star martial specialisation, but was held back by a clubfoot and had a few vices he'd picked up. The Kommenos royal eugenics program could produce better, but he's still rather good.

 

[unmerged(462833)]

(...)
1241 Battle of Legnica(invasion of poland) Mongol Empire 8-20k vs Poland, HRE, military orders 25-60k outcome... crushing mongol victory

About history - in a battle of Legnica it is mostly said that Mongol had 8.000 - 10.000. It is mostly said that estimated number of Poles and allies (like Templars or Hospitallers) were about 7.000 - 8.000... About Your summary, I agree - Mongols armies weren't larger than enemies, at least not so large as in game. I just faced Ilkhanate (guess will face Golden Horde soon also, but they didn't appear yet). I am playing as sultan of Khwarizm, Khiva, Georgia and ruler in part of Alania and Cumans. When I saw event that Mongols appeared, I gathere all armies - about 50.000 soldiers and moved to Khiva. Ilkhanate quickly defeated Persian Empire and declared war against me. Result wasn't hard to predict. Before I've menaged to get into the battle with one mongol stack (a little less than 20.000) I've lost large part of army due to attrition. After that there was a battle. In a hard, bloody battle I've menaged to defeat this stack but suffered heavy casualties and after it I had only 28.000 soldiers left. And that was the end of my succees - Ilkhanate moved a stack of 80.000 and I had to ran away. He was capturing every holding fast - full province within few days so war ended quickly - I've lost territory in Kingdom of Khiva. Annoying thing is that I didn't have any chances due to few things - first was number of mongol army - almost 200.000 vs 50.000 and their quantity. Second thing, they suffer no attrition. They could gather only 4 stacks easily, for me it is impossible so if I am not near port I can loose more forces while moving than fighting. And third thing, they captured province too fast...

 

[unmerged(509501)]

Yeah I noticed that as well, aside from the nice event boxes that introduce them they come off as more like a band of faction rebels/ a standard pagan state rather than a unique and somewhat apocalyptic alien force.

 

[Zireael]

There's another thread which states that Mongol attrition-free doomstack are unrealistic. Various ideas were thrown concerning how to solve the problem. I hope the devs think on this before 1.08.

 

[Gqarz]

They could just make a new trait for mongol rulers allowing them to be great at the beginning and then fade with time. They could also introduce either a new unit called the Mongol Horse Archer or they could introduce a massive morale bonus for Mongol cavalry.

 

[NewbieOne]

The problem with Mongols was training and possibly endurance. I do believe some attrition bonuses are okay for steppe warriors who are simply more used to difficult conditions than the European feudal class or burghers. Definitely much more training than any sort of levies or even semi-professional knight-service warriors. It's kinda like elite units (commando or just veterans) vs conscripts. Tactics were also superior. What tends to be missed is that Mongols gathered a lot of intelligence prior to invading, it wasn't blind marching in. Plus, I agree on the demand for tribute before invading, although they would often demand levies and not only cash. I'm pretty convinced a smaller regional power would have to enter into pretty much normal vassalage, possibly with a Mongol garrison or governor or some such, only larger states could be kept as tributaries. I'm also kind of against de iure assimilation.

Oh, and way too much culture and religion assimilation indeed. They didn't settle those lands and were not interested in spreading their culture, either. If you were an important and capable vassal, you'd get assistance (military or other) when needed, you could get some gifts or favours, you could be given a bride from the khagan's family, presumably you'd learn the language and you could probably be put in command of mixed armies made up also of more plebeian Mongols. But assimilation wouldn't go any further. No going Mongol. And definitely no going Tengri. Even among themselves, the Mongols practiced many different religions and they didn't really perceive a need to be united on that front. Nor did Muslim khagans feel beholden to the caliphs. Muslim khagans too allied with the crusaders against the Mamluks.

Oh, and not everybody in a Mongol army was a Mongol. Vassal levies were a large part at some point. Pretty much like when the settled Mongols get to raise normal levies in the game.