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tu_79

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I wanted a challenge, so I took Kiev, trying to unite Rus and prepare against the horde invasion. Well, in near 200 years I managed to nearly unite them all: all russians, plus Crimea, Poland, Lithuania, and norwegians rulers are now Rurikovich. Everything under the kingdom of Kiev (I discovered it is rather difficult to form an empire under seniority).
Well, I don't have an empire, but it looks like it.

I thought mongols were able to conquer so much land because they were horse mounted nomads, and such make good light cavalry, so they can gather high troop numbers in a short time. They weren't a threat before because their alliances didn't last long. Then they learned feudalism and went crazy.

I understand that, because mongols are out of the map, they must appear with an event, and in big numbers to cover for the lack of their own country lands. I can also concede that they come in big numbers, with high mobility light cavalry. But why don't they suffer attrition?
Their troops should excel in the steppe, but not in other terrains. That's enough to help them conquer half of the world, as their part of the world is full of steppes.

If they cross the Urals and find fragmented kingdoms, the mongols can easily take them bit by bit (well, they are invaders, so they have free casus belli). If they fight across the steppes, they are able to overwhelm any other army, even if they suffered attrition, because nearby mongol armies can join any battle in time. But I doubt the mongols were able to conquer so much of Europe had they encountered a very large, united and well defended realm.

So, it's ok, my improved kingdom of Kiev had 30K fighters, more than any other power in the map, even the Seljuks. And then they came, with 100K soldiers, easily conquering the Seljuks. Few years later they knocked at my doors with 130K soldiers. Here is my challenge. That's a war I didn't expected to win, so I kept sending missionaries and plotting to murder their leaders, with no luck. Even I managed to kill the Khan of Ilkhanate, but there were not any problem with their succession, everyone respected the newborn son of the old khan. Are their vassals affraid of that huge loyal army?
Well, let's play the russian way. Let them conquer land, and suffer attrition. Try to attack small stacks, defend on high terrain, and retake lands when they have passed. I may lose this war, but hopefully they will lose enough event army men for the next war... But, WTF, they don't seem to suffer any attrition! They came with just 2 stacks of 50K men each, they even join them from time to time. I managed to hold them 18 months, in the cold russian steppes, mind you, and they didn't lose a single men by hunger.
Thankfully they only wanted a single province, which I had to concede.

My armies are crumbled, and then I receive the really bad news. The real menace is not the Ilkhanate, but the Golden Horde, that is going to appear soon.

Is there any way to face them? I am trying to convert them to my religion, but it seems a little gamey to me. Assassins and plotters, I am ok with them, but it should be only a little help to the real battle (you know, weakening their leaders in the right moment).

Or at least, how can I mod it so their event troops cost money and suffer attrition, like any other army?
 

ekorovin

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Attrition immune Mongols is a vanilla thing. On the one hand, I get why they went for it, to give them power enough to change the world. But on the other hand it makes Mongols behave in spectacularly unhistorical patterns, like conquering high-attrition areas, like North-Eastern Russia with no sweat whatsoever, when historically they hadn't even tried going for Novgorod, and were defeated by Permians at Chulmandor.
But, generally speaking, isn't Mongols OP? Their spectacular success against Russian principalities was possible because of deep crisis of Rus' lands mainly, and secondary just sheer luck (12 princes dead at battle of Kalka, including Kievan and Chernigovian, enough to paralyze every state, let alone degenerating Rus' of XIII century).
I think powerful enough state (Mamlukes in OTL) should have a chance to fend off invasion without resorting to gamey tactics. And I think Mongols shouldn't have the "no attrition" magic
 

tu_79

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Exactly, I didn't knew the details of the russian territory conquest, but as you explained it makes more sense even. I know I should complain in the main thread, but when you are playing a mod you never know when it is a problem with vanilla or with the mod.
Is there any way to get rid of that attrition issue?
 
E

EmperorTojo

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Without the "no attrition" magic the AI is too stupid and all of their troops die by hunger, frankly. The AI does not comprehend the difference between low and high attrition areas, and will lose tens of thousands without doing anything about it. Ultimately this is more gamey than letting them have no attrition at all, because they will destroy themselves without it. You could work around this by giving them a smaller army perhaps, but their 'event army' is all they have for some time as they won't be getting anything from their conquered lands. I am not sure if the events already does this, but it'd perhaps be better if the mongols had some continual event concerning "reinforcements from the east" which would ensure they had armies to spare. This event could disappear after some time I suppose. I am pretty sure this already exists, but not in the same fashion.

There's a way of getting rid of the attrition immunity anyway, it should be in the files somewhere concerning their arrival.
 

ekorovin

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That's tough call. I'd call it semi-legendary. Komi didn't have any written chronicles, but both Komi and Mansi have oral tradition mentioning the battle, and their culures are very different (Mansi are Ugorians and Komi are Permians). The aleged place of the battle lies under the waters of Kama reservoir, so no archeological proof exists. Hypotetically, probably some Mongol raids could have been fended off, but of course nothing epic, like 10 or 40 tumens defeated and Kama running red, like legends would have you to believe.
 

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Attrition immune Mongols is a vanilla thing. On the one hand, I get why they went for it, to give them power enough to change the world. But on the other hand it makes Mongols behave in spectacularly unhistorical patterns, like conquering high-attrition areas, like North-Eastern Russia with no sweat whatsoever, when historically they hadn't even tried going for Novgorod, and were defeated by Permians at Chulmandor.
But, generally speaking, isn't Mongols OP? Their spectacular success against Russian principalities was possible because of deep crisis of Rus' lands mainly, and secondary just sheer luck (12 princes dead at battle of Kalka, including Kievan and Chernigovian, enough to paralyze every state, let alone degenerating Rus' of XIII century).
I think powerful enough state (Mamlukes in OTL) should have a chance to fend off invasion without resorting to gamey tactics. And I think Mongols shouldn't have the "no attrition" magic

I don't think Mongol's spectacular successes had anything to do with "sheer luck". The mongol army was simply the most advanced and efficient army of that era. Other than better tactics, mongols' motivation was generally higher than any of their rivals. Only Mameluks could finally stand against Mongols ( which lacked Hulau due to inner struggles within Mongol dynasty ) with higher motivation than Mongols. Mameluks knew that their hold against the Mongols was the only way to save islamic world.
 

tu_79

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So, we must endure this because the AI can't deal with attrition? Your idea of continous reinforcements sounds better to me than what we have now.

I think they can still be dangerous, but not invincible. First thing, they have free casus belli. And they should be able to ignore truces (the real mongols conquered the world damn fast). I remember in EU they changed the mechanics for hordes, because they didn't respect truces and didn't need declaration of war to start raids, and the only way to stop them (sometimes) were to pay tributes.
Second, my army was the biggest in the world, and they were just 30K army men. If the mongols are given, say 20K horsemen each horde, they still might conquer half world, provided they fight in plain terrain. By the time they can be stopped, they can start recruiting some troops in their lands, if they manage to hold rebels.

In this mod, troops are reduced in size. Have mongol armies been reduced accordingly?
 

ekorovin

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I never told that luck was the only factor in Mongol succeses. The key factor was that Rus' in XIII was nearly dead anyway, if not Mongols, anybody could conquer it, which Lithuanians spectacularily demonstrated. Anyhow, loosing all key military commanders in one go didn't help.
The same goes for Middle East, Mamlukes was the only capable military force in the whole Middle East. I however doubt, that Circassian slave general cared about saving civilisation from barbarians. He just wanted to continue being ruler of Egypt and doesn't care much for being murdered by Mongols. Sure Mongols were powerful and organized, and generally cool, but they wasn't some kind of supersoldeirs.
 

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It is possible to stop the Mongols with a strong Eastern European power tu_79. I've done it with Lithuania, although I'll grant that at that stage I controlled almost all of Eastern Europe and much of Scandanavia, and it was still a series of hard fought wars.
 

eranam

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I think the mongols really need an overhaul. First they need to see their strength depicted in another way:

The mongols superiority in war was due to leadership, and well trained troops amongst which horse archers were absolutely vital to their victories. Not sheer numbers.

They were able to defeat their ennemies by exploited their division and attacking at the right moment, overcoming superior numbers of the islamic and christian troops.

So what should be done should be:
-1 giving them leaders with insane stats, thus making them dependant on strong individuals, as was the case.
-2 reducing their numbers, horse archers are already good enough.
-3 having them submitted to a special series of events representing the kurultai (succession assembly) when the khan dies. It would give them a truce with every nation, paralysing them, as it happened historically, when their khan dies.

I think giving them free attrition is not too bad, as it's not so far from the reality as well as helping the challenged AI of CK2

With this we should see mongols still wrecking everybody, but quickly weakening when their khans die, and new generation of less able rulers take power.
 

Urzhail64

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Mongols historically didn't fare well in lands whose terrain didn't favor cavalry - notably Croatia and NE Russia. In Croatia's case, mountainous terrain enabled the Croats to set ambushes for the Mongols..and eventually led to the Mongols leaving the region entirely. Along with excellent Mongol leadership and high discipline among their troops, the lands of western Russia and the flat Hungarian basin favored their army makeup.

No matter how excellent their professionalism and leadership were, it simply shouldn't be very likely for the Mongols to venture into heavy forest, taiga or mountainous areas where armies particularly cavalry heavy ones have very little to live off (And to say nothing of room to maneuver) and would have been greatly strung out..had they somehow managed to penetrate into the Scandavanian penisula..I have little doubt that the Norse skill at seaborne attacks would have come as a very rude shock to the Mongols. They'd likely have to traverse along the coastlines with their cavalry heavy armies due to the thick forests of the area leaving them quite exposed to Norse ship borne raids along the water. Plus, the terrain is well suited to the Norse style of combat rather than the Mongol one. Keep in mind that the Norse was quite capable of traveling over rivers as well giving them mobility that the Mongols couldn't even touch because sailing is significantly faster than land travel after all.
 

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That's tough call. I'd call it semi-legendary. Komi didn't have any written chronicles, but both Komi and Mansi have oral tradition mentioning the battle, and their culures are very different (Mansi are Ugorians and Komi are Permians). The aleged place of the battle lies under the waters of Kama reservoir, so no archeological proof exists. Hypotetically, probably some Mongol raids could have been fended off, but of course nothing epic, like 10 or 40 tumens defeated and Kama running red, like legends would have you to believe.

I seriously doubt the land of the Komi would have supported armies past a certain degree of density or there'd be tremendous attrittion. Especially in wintertime. The best examples of what the terrain of the Finnish lands can do to large armies is in the Winter War and the Continuation Wars between the Finns and the Russians. Suffice it to say that the Russians took appalling losses in both wars. And that took place 7 centuries after the Mongol invasions !
 

ekorovin

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What? Ever Heard of Khwarezmian empire? Rum Seljuks? All was destroyed by Mongols...
I won't say anything about Rum, I simply don't know, but Khwarezm of Muhammad II wasn't exactly the staple stability.

Mongols historically didn't fare well in lands whose terrain didn't favor cavalry - notably Croatia and NE Russia. In Croatia's case, mountainous terrain enabled the Croats to set ambushes for the Mongols..and eventually led to the Mongols leaving the region entirely. Along with excellent Mongol leadership and high discipline among their troops, the lands of western Russia and the flat Hungarian basin favored their army makeup.
Mongols have their share of success in mountains of Central Asia and Caucasus, and boreal forests of Tuva is the part of their homeland, so attributing their victories or defeats solely to geographical factor feels wrong. At Ain Jalut the terrain was familiar for Mongols, yet they were defeated.
 
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tu_79

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It is possible to stop the Mongols with a strong Eastern European power tu_79. I've done it with Lithuania, although I'll grant that at that stage I controlled almost all of Eastern Europe and much of Scandanavia, and it was still a series of hard fought wars.

I really want to believe you, but when they come with stacks of 50k men that are not forced to divide, it is not possible to counterattack them with just 30K troops. They barely stop to conquer holdings. I try to circle around them to recover my holdings, and to ambush the leftovers, with no luck. I need to cross foreign lands to be able to circle them, and my stacks die of hunger. By the time they are deep inside the realm to let me maneuver without attrition, I have lost the war.

Is it logical that you need a humongous realm to be able to stop the invasions? How big were the mamelucks when they defeated the mongols? The hability for a player to overexpand should be addressed in other ways, not with super-evil nations with impossible armies for any normal kingdom. Coalitions against aggresive players, like in EUIV, sounds better to me.
Again, they come with more troops than the seljuks, mamelucks, and bizantines together. Plus they are supermen, as they don't need to feed. Really?
 

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Hi all,

as the Mongols historically failed to subdue most of Europe and all of Japan I think the game should somehow take that into consideration. Total Mongol conquest of Eurasia ingame should be possible but only barely and seldom.

Rgds, Oldtimer
 

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Hi all,

as the Mongols historically failed to subdue most of Europe and all of Japan I think the game should somehow take that into consideration. Total Mongol conquest of Eurasia ingame should be possible but only barely and seldom.

Rgds, Oldtimer

Total Mongol conquest of the entire CK2 map by the AI is VERY RARE too, so you don't have to worry about that. But the countries on the eastern edge of the map are in big danger of falling of course as i feel they should be.
 

Gwyn ap Nud

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Someone mentioned the solution of just giving them constant off-map soldiers, instead of having them immune to attrition. You could tie this to a more complicated series of events in which they only get soldiers based on the off-map event-driven power of the rest of the empire. If it's possible to delete event troops as well, you could do this to represent things like the Khan dying and the hordes having to return to Mongolia. Keeps them powerful without feeling like they're cheating, or not fun to play against. Because I think that the title of this thread is one of the worst things you could possibly say about a game mechanism. "Playing this for the first time and this just feels wrong" in a game based on historical immersion? Bad!
 

Urzhail64

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Dec 1, 2012
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Hi all,

as the Mongols historically failed to subdue most of Europe and all of Japan I think the game should somehow take that into consideration. Total Mongol conquest of Eurasia ingame should be possible but only barely and seldom.

Rgds, Oldtimer

Actually the Mongols were going to invade Western Europe. It was the death of the khan that called them back to install their next khan but that led to some Mongol infighting that pretty much put off any chance of a European invasion. As for Japan, they didn't fare very well when they fought the Mongols...it was the "Divine Wind" sinking most of the Mongol flotilla that saved Japan (it was a huge typhoon, I believe)