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Devin

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I finally received the game by mail in Germany today. There has been very little in the forums about how the most important part of the game works – namely the diplomacy. For those who don’t have the game or are still considering it, I thought I’d give more detail.

To conduct diplomacy, you use a negotiation template with one or more other countries called a “brief”. This basically contains the draft orders and existing agreements for all upcoming moves and treaties relating to the other parties in the brief. The procedure is to draft a proposal (or read a proposed draft), send it to the other parties for agreement and then set your official orders accordingly if the other parties agree. You can also designate draft orders as an ultimatum, which threatens to scupper an entire set of agreements if a revision is not accepted. There is a handy tool to automatically convert agreements to real orders, and you will be warned if any of your real orders violate any agreements. The brief is nullified after resolution if your real orders violate the agreement. Alternatively, you can inform the other parties that you will no longer abide by the agreement after the upcoming resolution (this has a smaller negative on your reputation than if you renege on the agreement in the current phase). Many agreements can be made permanent (valid for the entire game) or non-permanent (valid until further notice).

These briefs can be as simple or complex as you want, though unnecessary complexity makes it more likely the AI won’t agree. There is a time limit in the diplomacy phase, but you can set it to 30 minutes so it’s not a real constraint. The interface expedites the whole process nicely once you get the hang of it. It’s basically a matter of dragging and dropping and responding to context-sensitive menus.

Here is what you can agree to:
1) Specific orders. Essentially, you issue a set of draft orders for the units of any of the parties in the brief. If they agree, you are all (theoretically) obligated to carry them out.
2) Demilitarized Zone (DMZ). A DMZ pertains to a specific province and prohibits all parties from moving to, convoying to or supporting to a province without the permission (approval of a draft order in the brief) of the other parties. If someone already has a unit there, that unit can’t do anything without permission.
3) Non-aggression pact. The NAP converts all occupied provinces and all supply centers (SC) of the two countries to DMZs. Additionally, any province the other side moves to, convoys into or supports into is subject to the DMZ rules. The NAP can be permanent or non-permanent and exceptions can be negotiated.
4) Targeted offensive alliance. Two parties can form an alliance against a specific third party. Both allies obligate themselves to show any orders (by making a draft order in the brief) for all units which border on an allied unit AND the SC or unit of the target country. You don’t need your ally’s permission to move affected units, but it ensures that you won’t issue orders that inadvertently ruin your ally’s plans and vice versa.
5) Full alliance. Both parties must agree upon all moves by units that are adjacent to eachother’s SCs and units. This can be permanent or non-permanent.
6) Builds. You can suggest and offer builds during the appropriate phase.
7) Debt. I’m not sure exactly what this means, but presumably you can use it as an IOU for future negotiations. It’s not really relevant for interaction with the AI.

So there is a pretty versatile palette of diplomatic tools. I have been an avid Diplomacy player for many years, so I’m glad to see Paradox thought creatively about this part of the game. In my next post, I’ll give my views on how all of this works in practice in terms of gameplay.
 
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nolby said:
Another thing.
The diplomacy part lacks a few thing.
I want to be able to plan many turns ahead.
You know. Tell the other player to do this and that because i the next turn, we will do that and this.

Hm? That's a big minus for the score...
 

Devin

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The AI is a mixed bag in the current version, but most of the flaws are fixable. The problem is that the simplicity of Diplomacy’s rules makes the AI’s inevitable shortcomings all the more glaring. Here are my impressions on the diplomacy and AI:

1) The diplomatic options are great for tactical diplomacy but insufficient for strategic diplomacy. What would really help is a “sphere of influence” diplomatic feature, as in “you get Norway and Belgium, I get Denmark and Sweden”. It would work as a modified DMZ, where only one party is prohibited from moving or supporting into the sphere of influence. As it stands, alliances are season-by-season arrangements that are not based on any medium-term goals. Bartering over who gets which province is at the heart of Diplomacy.

2) The game doesn’t make it readily apparent who is allied with whom and who is at war. You can infer a lot from the orders, of course, but it is common for a country to issue contradictory attack and support orders in the same turn (and for several turns in a row). You certainly don’t see alliances that appear to last more then a couple of years. The overall impression is one of incoherence. Just when you think a coalition is forming and you reason through what it should mean for your strategy, the coalition appears to break down. As I mentioned in the first point, a large part of the problem is that alliances involving the AI have a very tactical character.

3) There really should be some visual cues about how the AI is disposed to the human player and other AIs. If you watch the resolution phase, the avatars show various emotes that indicate their reaction to a particular order. It would be nice if the aggregated impact of these reactions would be shown on the avatar’s expression when you call up a brief. Without this input, you really don’t feel much remorse about breaking promises or much incentive to keep them. Diplomacy is all about cultivating trust, so there should be some feedback here.

4) Tactically, the AI is competent enough to avoid simple mistakes like botched orders, but it is very inefficient. Units sometimes go unused that could have made a difference. The AI needs to do a better job of prioritizing which units are free to move, which are needed for support and which just need to sit on an SC so that no one grabs it. There is also a lot of unnecessary bouncing that occurs because the AI often doesn’t focus on a limited number of objectives and moves unsupported. There are also many instances of units being moved for no good reason out of SCs that are adjacent to hostile units. The AI needs to be taught to play defense.

5) A fundamental problem is that there isn’t enough diplomatic interaction with the AI. I have no idea how the AI’s communicate among themselves, but in AI-human interaction the AI doesn’t use enough (if any) diplomacy to find out what the human player’s intentions are. In any given turn, the AI should have an idea what it would want me to do and not to do. It would be nice if the AI would propose more draft orders to try to get me to commit to more favorable orders. In fact, the AI only uses diplomacy to suggest non-aggression pacts, support orders and full alliances. If my diplomatic efforts fail to get the AI to agree to DMZs or other friendly orders, I become cautious. The AI, on the other hand, issues very risky orders without making any effort to nail me down on what my intentions are. Sloppy tactics and sloppy diplomacy mean that it’s pretty easy to waltz into the opponents’ SCs.

6) The alliance system is great in principle, but it is not very effective in practice when dealing with the AI. The problem is that an allied AI is just not receptive to suggestions, and it doesn’t respond with counterproposals when it rejects your ideas. As I mentioned, the AI is not capable of making unit or province-level suggestions. This is particularly irritating when you have an alliance, since many of your moves become subject to approval by the AI.

7) I love the brief system’s ability to bring two or more other countries together in order to try to hammer out a common plan. It is also useful for trying to prevent problems between two other countries that you want to see on good terms (say, for a three-way alliance). In practice, it is impossible to get the AIs to agree on anything. It’s difficult enough to get bilateral agreements to work.

8) The AIs should cooperate better against the strongest player. I find that after about 8 SCs, I barely need to bother with diplomacy because I can crush each opponent separately without facing much coordinated opposition.

9) The whole AI style feature is a black box to me. I don’t know whether it is worth the effort to analyze whether one country is run by a “monkey” or an “owl” and what that should mean for my strategy. I can never remember the difference between them anyway. It would be nice if the player could at least set all AI opponents to the same animal in order to see what effect this has on gameplay. The player should also be able to call up the style descriptions during the game, since they are otherwise only available in the pre-game setup screen.

These were mostly criticisms, but the game is still entertaining. It offers a good sandbox for trying out unorthodox strategies and honing your tactics, because the AI is good enough to punish you for mistakes. If the past is any guide, I’m sure some of the issues I raised will be ironed out in the patches.
 

unmerged(4271)

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Devin said:
2) The game doesn’t make it readily apparent who is allied with whom and who is at war. You can infer a lot from the orders, of course, but it is common for a country to issue contradictory attack and support orders in the same turn (and for several turns in a row). You certainly don’t see alliances that appear to last more then a couple of years. The overall impression is one of incoherence. Just when you think a coalition is forming and you reason through what it should mean for your strategy, the coalition appears to break down. As I mentioned in the first point, a large part of the problem is that alliances involving the AI have a very tactical character.

But in the original game it's not necessarily apparent who is allied with whom and who is at war, either. ;) And sometimes one partner may think he is in an alliance only to be fooled, or other times alliances exist that are kept secret.

But I think your other point is fair, that a player should see, during repeated playing of the game, games with some long-term alliances.

3) There really should be some visual cues about how the AI is disposed to the human player and other AIs. If you watch the resolution phase, the avatars show various emotes that indicate their reaction to a particular order. It would be nice if the aggregated impact of these reactions would be shown on the avatar’s expression when you call up a brief. Without this input, you really don’t feel much remorse about breaking promises or much incentive to keep them. Diplomacy is all about cultivating trust, so there should be some feedback here.

4) Tactically, the AI is competent enough to avoid simple mistakes like botched orders, but it is very inefficient. Units sometimes go unused that could have made a difference. The AI needs to do a better job of prioritizing which units are free to move, which are needed for support and which just need to sit on an SC so that no one grabs it. There is also a lot of unnecessary bouncing that occurs because the AI often doesn’t focus on a limited number of objectives and moves unsupported. There are also many instances of units being moved for no good reason out of SCs that are adjacent to hostile units. The AI needs to be taught to play defense.

I think these are both good points. :)
 

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Interesting reflections overall, keep them coming. It'll be even more interesting to hear when how MP works, I hope we'll get some sort of report/AAR in the near future.
 

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Greater DCU said:
This is Paradox we're talking about. You can be fairly sure that most major issues will be fixed/amended within a few months. It takes a while but the player feedback will no doubt result in a constantly improving game.

I think that the last time this was true was with EU2, right now they are no different than any other standard game company.
 

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Sernaton said:
I think that the last time this was true was with EU2, right now they are no different than any other standard game company.

I disagree with you here. While Paradox's new policy regarding adding new features and such may have an impact on that front (I'd still say it's too early to know definitely), when it comes to correcting bugs in the long run, I've seen no indication that they'll change in that department.
 

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Gothmog said:
I disagree with you here. While Paradox's new policy regarding adding new features and such may have an impact on that front (I'd still say it's too early to know definitely), when it comes to correcting bugs in the long run, I've seen no indication that they'll change in that department.
There's been a shift in policy? I haven't been around much of late so I've only really been checking in for CK 1.05 :p
 

unmerged(8351)

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Well i have not seen a new "enhancement" for VIC of CK in over a year i think...and HOI's last was six months ago? I think there is a distinct difference in how paradox handles things that occured sometime right after CK and Vic were released.

Anyway on to happier thoughts. I thought that long post was very good and comprehensive. I defintiely agree about the need for more longterm Diplomatic options (or at least a text communication option for MP).

In my last game basically ENG killed GER and left ENG completely undefended while me FRA took ENG...you can guess how long it took me to push ENG out of GER after that. As FRA no one ever really attacked me at all (a very bad idea for AI to ignore the player) Hell in F03 I got 4! builds. All this was unilateral action too, without the AI aceepting a single one of my proposals (and it only ofered me ones I would never accept, like "support me into this SC you could take without my help and I cannot take without your help...") and the AI basically continued to ignore me until I won.

I think its too easy to make yourself an uninviting target and thus have the AI move elsewhere. I think if the AI doesn't feel it can make progress in an area (because of a local/global disadvantage) it attacks a different player. This is usually the exact opposite of what you want to do (which is form an alliance and put up a staunch defense). For example in my FRA game ENG/ITA/AUS ran away from me into RUS and TUR (ENG/RUS had killed GER,).

Not allowing the early leader (or any leader) to steamroll the game is the FIRST and MOST IMPORTANT diplomact skill people learn in Diplomacy. I think most people get it after 1 or 2 games, the AI sadly does not seem to in my experience.
 

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Kriegsspieler said:
This is what Gothmog is referring to:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/announcement.php?f=302

Personally, I have detected no change in their approach. :)

Yep, that's what I was writing about.

As for any change...well, while I haven't monitored all games that closely of late, it does seem that they've reduced the time they spend on adding new features a bit, or at least it would seem so if you go by HOI2 as the main example.

Then again, this could be due to them focusing mainly on completing/fine tuning Diplomacy and turning back to HOI2 more later on.

Again, its to early to tell in my opinion...but I seriously doubt they'll ever turn into your standard game company when it comes to patching and the like...so Diplomacy will be patched and fixed, I have no doubt of that...new/improved features might be another matter...
 

Kriegsspieler

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Gothmog said:
Yep, that's what I was writing about.

As for any change...well, while I haven't monitored all games that closely of late, it does seem that they've reduced the time they spend on adding new features a bit, or at least it would seem so if you go by HOI2 as the main example.

Then again, this could be due to them focusing mainly on completing/fine tuning Diplomacy and turning back to HOI2 more later on.

Again, its to early to tell in my opinion...but I seriously doubt they'll ever turn into your standard game company when it comes to patching and the like...so Diplomacy will be patched and fixed, I have no doubt of that...new/improved features might be another matter...
All very true. The problem is -- and this is worrying to me, too, really -- is that with games coming out in fairly rapid succession Johan's ability to keep up with them is going to be strained. I do know that Johan intends to do a final patch for Victoria (he has repeatedly promised one) and at least one more for CK. And there is a BIG 1.3 patch in the works for HOI2, as recent announcements in the forum have shown.

So don't give up on these guys yet! They haven't lost their way completely.