First idea group for Manchu

[Tales N-E]

What idea group should I choose first with Manchu? One of those that let me reform the government or exploration so I can colonize siberia as much as possible before anyone else gets there?

I have started as Hiaxi and have vassalized the nation to the east(I was going to recheck the name but now the game crashed on me...) and currently fighting a war on the north as they foolishly started a war against my vassal. I plan to annex them as I figure my vassal can help me fight any potential rebellions that could occur. Korea and Ming are my allies.

 

[balmung60]

Reform-related ideas.

Siberia's poor and you'll only get half of the value of the dirt-poor provinces you colonize anyway.

 

[TheDanish]

Reform-related ideas.

Siberia's poor and you'll only get half of the value of the dirt-poor provinces you colonize anyway.

Siberia is poor, but if you block Muscovy/Russia sooner, they'll be less of a PITA to deal with and you won't have a massive, angry border with them.

You can go either with Exploration or a reform idea group first.

 

[Tales N-E]

Checking the description, it seems forming Manchu reforms the government to Despotic Monarchy. I thought this easy way of gettting by the reform goverment was removed.

 

[thesmorganator]

I went with exploration myself, but you could opt for some other ideas. There is no need to take a reform idea, forming Manchu makes you a despotic monarchy

 

[Kingepyon]

Forming Manchu makes you a despotic monarchy, and then forming Qing gives you chinese tech.

I think I went with innovative, anyway, though. I always avoid taking a mil idea first, just because the first few levels of mil tech are pretty important.

 

[JellyRev]

Checking the description, it seems forming Manchu reforms the government to Despotic Monarchy. I thought this easy way of gettting by the reform goverment was removed.

It's actually worse to form Manchu if not reformed.

I just did it in my game, went back to autosave to undo it.

Basically it changes government type so you lose the great horde CB's, but it keeps the units horde so no upgrade units, and the tech stays nomad.

This is a big time fail.

If you can form Qing quickly before horde units are dinosaurs then forming Manchu before reforming is worth it bc Qing does change the units and tech group.

 

[nalfz]

I'd go for expansion personally
Your provinces are probably going to be dirt poor so the trade bonus is nice.
Colonising siberia is a good idea too, for reasons TheDanish said

 

[Tales N-E]

It's actually worse to form Manchu if not reformed.

I just did it in my game, went back to autosave to undo it.

Basically it changes government type so you lose the great horde CB's, but it keeps the units horde so no upgrade units, and the tech stays nomad.

This is a big time fail.

If you can form Qing quickly before horde units are dinosaurs then forming Manchu before reforming is worth it bc Qing does change the units and tech group.

I have already chosen exploration though. When my vassal is annexed in five years time I can form Manchu, but I should wait until I have reformed the government? Do I get chinese tech if I'm reformed and then form Manchu?

I could form Qing too, Ming are having massive trouble, but I need 10 years to fully recover manpower after putting down a revolt so it depends on how long Ming's civil war lasts.

So far I have annexed the tribe to the east, currently diplo annexing the one in north and fully annexed the one to the west. Just got my first colony. I think the year was 1468 or so.

 

[BaZERGer]

I have already chosen exploration though. When my vassal is annexed in five years time I can form Manchu, but I should wait until I have reformed the government? Do I get chinese tech if I'm reformed and then form Manchu?

I could form Qing too, Ming are having massive trouble, but I need 10 years to fully recover manpower after putting down a revolt so it depends on how long Ming's civil war lasts.

So far I have annexed the tribe to the east, currently diplo annexing the one in north and fully annexed the one to the west. Just got my first colony. I think the year was 1468 or so.

When you use the decision to form the Manchu, you will lose the ability to reform the gorvernment, so you'd have to form Qing with horde units and tech, before getting them replaced. Forming Qing requires 3 northern Ming provinces, one which starts off as their capital(though they may move it back to Nanjing later), and the province Xilin Gol, in the hands of Mongolia, a vassal to Oirat.

 

[JellyRev]

I have already chosen exploration though. When my vassal is annexed in five years time I can form Manchu, but I should wait until I have reformed the government? Do I get chinese tech if I'm reformed and then form Manchu?

I could form Qing too, Ming are having massive trouble, but I need 10 years to fully recover manpower after putting down a revolt so it depends on how long Ming's civil war lasts.

So far I have annexed the tribe to the east, currently diplo annexing the one in north and fully annexed the one to the west. Just got my first colony. I think the year was 1468 or so.

wait till you reform to form Manchu, its going to be difficult to take their capital and do a quick qing.

This is a pretty bad game mechanic. They didn't want players to get reformed for free via manchu so instead they did this. This cannot be WAD.

Just consolidate and then go full force into oriat, try to get ming as ally. once you eat oriat and reform you might have the manpower to take ming out.

 

[Kirikano]

Wiz already confirmed it was a bug that forming Manchu did not give both Chinese tech and units.

 

[Cossack_PL]

In my opinion it is actually beneficial to stay Horde tech until you form Qing. I'm currently playing Jianzhou -> Manchu, it's 1505 now and in a year I'm going to start the first war with Ming. Tech speed difference between Horde and Chinese is neglible, so my current mil tech is 9 while Ming is 6 now. Also Chinese units are not better than Horde ones until tech 9-12, so I still have an advantage over Ming and I will switch to Qing exactly at the right time to benefit from better units.

 

[Alerias]

Good or bad, Im a sucker for colonization. I go exploration, though for a land power bordering Siberia, expansion could do too.

 

[Cossack_PL]

Exploration is in Manchu case much better than Expansion IMHO as apart from awesome CB, which you won't get until you westernize, the benefits (apart from colonist) aren't that great, while Exploration gives more colonists and enables you also to colonize Philippines and Indonesia as well as island hop towards Africa/North America, which is very useful if you plan to westernize and complete 'Turn the tide' achievement.
Last but not least, Exploration uses Diplo points which are useless to Manchu while admin points are very important early on. Therefore you can not only get the whole group completed earlier, but also you get your national ideas earlier (in Manchu case it's +10% manpower, -20% core cost and -10% tech cost you get for completing first NI, so very good benefits).

 

[PhroX]

Interestingly, if you start as Yeren (the northernmost of the Manchu tribes), if you reform using the generic decision instead of the Manchu one, you get the Muslim technology group and units and not Chinese (though I would guess taking the Manchu decision later changes the units). So, if you're them, taking one of the idea groups that lets you reform first might be a pretty good idea. Innovative in particular seems interesting - with scientific revolution and the Manchu NI, you're basically at Ottoman tech level....

 

[Cossack_PL]

On the other hand Yeren starts Shamanist which will be painful considering that whole China and Korea are Confucian (unless you make rebels force-covert you of course).

 

[PhroX]

On the other hand Yeren starts Shamanist which will be painful considering that whole China and Korea are Confucian (unless you make rebels force-covert you of course).

I think the Manchu formation decision makes you Confucian - so as long as you take it after reforming, you're OK. Might have misremembered though. If you convert prior to reforming you'll get Chinese tech levels instead of Muslim, so even if you have to do it with rebels, you need to wait.