First Contact: Translating

[bobgrey1997]

I have come up with a rather strange question, but now it bugs me.
When you first run into a new species, and you gain a Special Project to "Translate their language", how exactly does this work?
To go from an example, in the Star Trek franchise, they have a tool called a "translator", which everyone caries around with them. Now, I don't know much about this series, or it's lore, but from what little I have seen (the Enterprise series), this device seems to be able to listen to an alien language, usually a few, angry, words at first Contact, and can translate it. Once translated, the device seems to alter sound waves so that when someone speaks in their own language, the other hears the translation. This works almost instantly, from hearing just a few words or sentences.
In reality, we have some probes flying about in space, constantly broadcasting looped messages in multiple Earth languages, in the hopes that some alien species will eventually find, and translate it. Any signals we have received from space have been the target of translation for years, hoping that it may be some alien language.
This form of translation takes years, decades, or even centuries. Not to mention, we have been spending centuries, if not longer, translating ancient human languages. If it is taking us this long to translate languages from our species, imagine the time to translate one from a whole different species!

In Stellaris, it takes all of a few months to translate alien languages, compared to Star Trek's few seconds and reality's few centuries.
This brings up the question: what exactly is going on during this project? The normal encounter is as so:
One of your science ships is out exploring the stars. They enter a system and encounter an alien science ship. Special Project issued.
Here is how I imagine it, as if I were the captain of the science ship:
While out exploring the galaxy, I drop out of FTL on the edge of an uncharted system and approach the nearest planet; a large, dense, gas giant. As I approach and see the system's star "raising" from the eastern horizon, a small ship of unknown origin and design can be seen, in a very low orbit. They are sending us a signal, trying to open a communications channel. The channel is opened, but the language is unrecognizable.

So, what now? Do we close the channel and end it back to Homeworld Communications for translating, or did they already receive a long-ranged signal?
Or, maybe, coincidentally at the same time, they received a signal from the alien's homeworld that has been on loop for thousands of years?
Or, perhaps, the alien ship sent our ship a signal, which immediately got forwarded to our homeworld?

Sure, it's a random question, but I feel it's a rather interesting one that now bugs me, not knowing the answer.
What do you think? Perhaps, maybe, there is some kind of "official" lore along with this that I somehow haven't noticed or looked over, or remember...?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Based on the event text for investigating the Nomad Fleet and the ancient space pirates, it appears that the translation is based on intercepted/overheard communications- you're listening in on what they're saying amongst themselves.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

It's probably somewhere around a little previous to Enterprise (as opposed to Original Series) levels of competency in translating.

Hoshi taking anywhere from a few minutes to a couple of months (depending on plot requirements...) is probably too fast for how Stellaris works. Then again she's mostly looking for how to say "hello", and "please don't shoot us", whereas the projects in game are much more serious and wide ranging, since we can negotiate fairly complicated trade deals from the moment we have the translation. Then again Star Trek as a whole is very soft science fiction, and by the end of Enterprise they're starting to get a much better database of how alien languages work, and starting to get the translator somewhat automated.

So no, I don't think there's an official lore about how it works.

 

[bobgrey1997]

Based on the event text for investigating the Nomad Fleet and the ancient space pirates, it appears that the translation is based on intercepted/overheard communications- you're listening in on what they're saying amongst themselves.

So, basically, we just happened to intercept a random transition sent across their empire at the exact moment one of our ships ran into one of theirs?
Or, is our ship intercepting their ship's communications? This would actually make since, but then that begs the question: how is it actually enough to go on to actually be able to make full contact with them? Basically, how does something like "We have found a system with six planets" help us learn how to say "Hello, we are [insert empire name here], and we'd like to improve peaceful relations with your people"?

It's probably somewhere around a little previous to Enterprise (as opposed to Original Series) levels of competency in translating.

Hoshi taking anywhere from a few minutes to a couple of months (depending on plot requirements...) is probably too fast for how Stellaris works. Then again she's mostly looking for how to say "hello", and "please don't shoot us", whereas the projects in game are much more serious and wide ranging, since we can negotiate fairly complicated trade deals from the moment we have the translation. Then again Star Trek as a whole is very soft science fiction, and by the end of Enterprise they're starting to get a much better database of how alien languages work, and starting to get the translator somewhat automated.

So no, I don't think there's an official lore about how it works.

True, it is very often that "please don't shoot us" is very necessary just about always for them! It would also be a bit too quick to have communications nearly instantly in the game. As for the comparison, I can see translations in Stellaris being similar to that of prior-early Enterprise.
One of my biggest questions with all of this is: however we are translating, it takes several months to do, but our ships are only within communication range of theirs for a few days to a month as they survey the system together (many times, our ship enters the system as theirs is leaving). That is, in no way, enough time to gather sufficient data to translate if it is all done via open communications (verbal), but to have intercepted a long, looping message from one of their primitive probes, but at the exact moment our ships met, is just way to coincidental.

Thank you both for the input, though.
Interesting question you never thought of thinking of, isn't it?

 

[Pyoro]

I suppose science ships might have a package with them that they send out to random contacts; you know, that sort of box that contains enough to unlock someone's language and culture - vids, music, books, math. I think a society experienced enough with this sort of thing would very quickly figured out how that all comes together into a "language" (complete with gestures and such); if anything if everyone did that it's rather surprising they need actual months to figure it out. An advanced Google Translate of sorts could probably do most of the hard work by itself ^^

Deciphering languages irl isn't really a century long project, it only is if you just have very few fragments and nothing to help you figure out whether you got things right or not.
(e: think of first contact efforts on Earth, during the colonization period and so on. That didn't take that long and they weren't that linguistically experienced as we are today ^^)

 

[Thinkamancer]

It would probably work like it does in Three Worlds Collide

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/HawFh7RvDM4RyoJ2d/three-worlds-collide-0-8

 

[TwoToTango]

I imagine even empires just starting out in 2200 are extremely advanced compared to our technology and have access to very sophisticated specialized AIs even if they don't have robots. So I imagine they would listen in to the comms of an alien empire as they survey and talk to each other, notice that they use certain words every time they go and survey a new planet or every time they phone home and so on. Then they would send all of that data to a translation AI who basically constructs a complete translation program from it.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

So, basically, we just happened to intercept a random transition sent across their empire at the exact moment one of our ships ran into one of theirs?
Or, is our ship intercepting their ship's communications? This would actually make since, but then that begs the question: how is it actually enough to go on to actually be able to make full contact with them? Basically, how does something like "We have found a system with six planets" help us learn how to say "Hello, we are [insert empire name here], and we'd like to improve peaceful relations with your people"?

Other text for stuff like studying the Mining Drones suggests we're perfectly capable of setting up long-range listening posts.

I assume that, once you've seen an unknown empire's ships/stations/whatever, you listen to their broadcast noise from afar and hone in more accurately on what you're trying to pick up. Stellaris allows for FTL communications with little lag and makes occasional mention to stuff like distributed drone sensor networks and the like; I could easily see that research project being "dump a bunch of sensors in the area, establish listening posts, and comb over every scrap of broadcast noise from this area to figure out what they've been saying".

 

[safe-keeper]

Not sure if I understand the question. I speak two languages fluently, and I never needed sci-fi gadgets to learn English. If you need to learn a language, just plow through textbooks and watch wideos and whatnot.

Stellaris' take, where you have to put major research projects on hold for months to decode a language, already makes perfect sense to me. No need to add techno babble.

Languages as aadvanced as humans' are bound to have a structure ofoverbs, nounsn and so on like ours that can be decoded/learned.

 

[Thinkamancer]

Not sure if I understand the question. I speak two languages fluently, and I never needed sci-fi gadgets to learn English. If you need to learn a language, just plow through textbooks and watch wideos and whatnot.

Stellaris' take, where you have to put major research projects on hold for months to decode a language, already makes perfect sense to me. No need to add techno babble.

Languages as aadvanced as humans' are bound to have a structure ofoverbs, nounsn and so on like ours that can be decoded/learned.

Aliens are alien. Try learning lojban. Alien languages are going to be even weirder.

 

[safe-keeper]

Aliens are alien. Try learning lojban. Alien languages are going to be even weirder.

Still a language, from a space-faring race. Structure and usage can be observed and translated. We have lots of weird languages on Earth, from binary to morse code to the clicking language in Gods Must be Crazy. You can learn all of them.

We can also decode ancient scripts, and that's without help from the long-dead people of those civilisations. Aliens actively cooperating to help learn each others' languages is a different thing entirely.

Also, again, it's not Picard and his crew figuring this out themselves, it's a third of your planet's scientists pouring over data for months. As it probably should be.

 

[bobgrey1997]

For other Earth languages, those of us on Earth or from it (all of us) can easily learn them. It is not hard, at all, to go to library or on the internet and find those textbooks and videos. Better yet, it is not hard to move to a region where that language is dominant.
Try learning a language of an alien species hundreds of light-years away. You now have no textbooks, videos, or a region you can just move to. All you have is some intercepted conversations, a single greeting broadcasts to your ship or station, or one of those aliens attempting to talk to you over live feed.

The question of this thread is:
What, exactly, does our empire have to work with to find a translation for these languages, and how do they do it?

From what I gather based on what has been said in the thread so far is:
We received data by:
Our ship has intercepted a set of communications between the alien ships while out exploring.
Our ship has received a single greeting broadcast from the alien ship.
Our ship has received a hail from the alien ship.
Our long-range communications array has intercepted alien communications after being told where to look by our ship.

We translate the data by:
The broadcast(s) are sent to a team of translators at our homeworld.
The broadcast(s) are fed to an AI, which compiles it all into a translation program and scrubs for common words and phrases to determine a workable translation.
Listening posts are set up in the region to gather more data for the translation.

I may be missing some, but that's the gist of it.
Thank you all for the responses. Feel free to continue discussing.