First Contact Mechanics Since 3.0

[Losttruppen]

I don't see this mentioned much since it has come online but I'm curious to see how people feel about the new mechanics. Personally I was quite keen on this being touched up, since it hasn't changed really at all since 1.0 and I never liked how early the map was fully revealed. Unfortunately I'm not entirely satisfied with how it currently plays.

The benefits I feel it has over the previous system are that the information about other empires and the galaxy are delayed and that you gain "first contact skill" making each subsequent contact a bit faster(this should be an envoy skill level in my opinion).

These are the problems I have with the gameplay of first contact in 3.0:

1. Most of the information about an empire is still presented up front, it just takes longer to do the multistep investigation vs the situation log society research.
2. It doesn't really tie into Intel(maybe base 10 is too high?). This is what I know about this empire immediately after contact which I feel doesn't leave much to the imagination. All their important borders with me are revealed as well as their homeworld.
3. Envoys don't gain any traits or levels like a normal leader so the only thing that affects the first contact mission is luck and some choices in empire creation. This can be the difference between 200 influence to you or 200 influence to your direct competitors while borders are still being established. The outcome isn't much different from how it was pre3.0 but back then it was determined entirely by your research output, which I feel was more fair than the current system as most empires started on a similar footing for resources.
4. Losing construction and science ships with their scientist to random events is a mechanical regression. We already established how annoying it is to replace your ships, crew, and give them all new orders after a negative anomaly result, yet it was brought back in 3.0 so that now you can randomly lose a construction ship putting up an outpost on the chokepoint between you and your neighbour; the same empire who sometimes gets to shoo them away or outright destroy them with no refunded materials or influence while they move in to build their own. I would say this happens at least once a game to me. The empire has already gone hostile to me at this point, so adding these events was mostly redundant too.
5. Because it takes so long to establish your first few contacts, and most empires only have 2 envoys to employ, there is a significantly longer time before you can effectively close your borders to other empires which means additional competition with their science ships for anomalies before they sterilize everything in your vicinity. Going hostile solves this, but I feel most peaceful empires need the early game boost anomalies can give more than the conquerors do. I'm biased on this one though as I've always hated the change of AI empires sterilizing surveyed worlds, and stopping cheesers from getting a second chance at an anomaly has always seemed like a poor excuse.

What are everyone else's thoughts on the not so recent changes?

Edit: I forgot you now get a bit of influence(~24) from marauder and space fauna contacts. I can't remember if you received influence for meeting enclaves pre 3.0. Probably a net gain of about 100 influence per game on average.

 

[GOLANX]

I don't see this mentioned much since it has come online but I'm curious to see how people feel about the new mechanics. Personally I was quite keen on this being touched up, since it hasn't changed really at all since 1.0 and I never liked how early the map was fully revealed. Unfortunately I'm not very satisfied with how it currently plays.

The benefits I feel it has over the previous system are that the information about other empires and the galaxy are delayed and that you gain "first contact skill" making each subsequent contact a bit faster(this should be an envoy skill level in my opinion).

These are the problems I have with the gameplay of first contact in 3.0:

1. Most of the information about an empire is still presented up front, it just takes longer to do the multistep investigation vs the situation log society research.

Agreed, your policies should help determine how much free information is passed off including homeworld Location, and your actions during first contact + wether you finished first determine how much intel you get on the enemy. Both factors determine how much Intel you gain

1. It doesn't really tie into Intel(maybe base 10 is too high?). This is what I know about this empire immediately after contact which I feel doesn't leave much to the imagination. All their important borders with me are revealed as well as their homeworld.View attachment 764009
   

Yeah 10 intel shouldn't reveal homeworld location or that they are Determined Exterminators, just where relevant borders are, and you can talk to them with a general understanding of their reaction to your call, at which point their Civics or Ethics can be sused out to their reactions.

1. Envoys don't gain any traits or levels like a normal leader so the only thing that affects the first contact mission is luck and some choices in empire creation. This can be the difference between 200 influence to you or 200 influence to your direct competitors while borders are still being established. The outcome isn't much different from how it was pre3.0 but back then it was determined entirely by your research output, which I feel was more fair than the current system as most empires started on a similar footing for resources.

Envoys should get levels, there should also be methods to spend resources to speed the progress Along.

1. Losing construction and science ships with their scientist to random events is a mechanical regression. We already established how annoying it is to replace your ships, crew, and give them all new orders after a negative anomaly result, yet it was brought back in 3.0 so that now you can randomly lose a construction ship putting up an outpost on the chokepoint between you and your neighbour; the same empire who sometimes gets to shoo them away or outright destroy them with no refunded materials or influence while they move in to build their own. I would say this happens at least once a game to me. The empire has already gone hostile to me at this point, so adding these events was mostly redundant too.

First Contact Wars should be a thing if they are harassing you send your military out to protect your ships and throw influence at the first contact Envoys

1. Because it takes so long to establish your first few contacts, and most empires only have 2 envoys to employ, there is a significantly longer time before you can effectively close your borders to other empires which means additional competition with their science ships for anomalies before they sterilize everything in your vicinity. Going hostile solves this, but I feel most peaceful empires need the early game boost anomalies can give more than the conquerors do. I'm biased on this one though as I've always hated the change of AI empires sterilizing surveyed worlds, and stopping cheesers from getting a second chance at an anomaly has always seemed like a poor excuse.

I would consider this to be a great reason to make envoy providing Edicts available in the early game.

What are everyone else's thoughts on the not so recent changes?

Mostly liked, few areas that could use work not by much.

 

[Ryika]

Envoys don't gain any traits or levels like a normal leader so the only thing that affects the first contact mission is luck and some choices in empire creation. This can be the difference between 200 influence to you or 200 influence to your direct competitors while borders are still being established. The outcome isn't much different from how it was pre3.0 but back then it was determined entirely by your research output, which I feel was more fair than the current system as most empires started on a similar footing for resources.

AI rolls for contact take 50% longer than rolls for players, so unless you pick the friendly first contact route, you should be able to successfully establish first contact most of the time. Every now and then, the AI will still snatch one from you (especially if you don't immediately open the notifiation to go to the next step a few times), but overall the system is heavily weighted in your favor.

I don't really agree that the old system was more fair - it was just weighted heavily towards the guy who produces more science.
Now it's pretty strongly weighted towards players in general, but rushing science is no longer a guarantee.

Losing construction and science ships with their scientist to random events is a mechanical regression. We already established how annoying it is to replace your ships, crew, and give them all new orders after a negative anomaly result, yet it was brought back in 3.0 so that now you can randomly lose a construction ship putting up an outpost on the chokepoint between you and your neighbour; the same empire who sometimes gets to shoo them away or outright destroy them with no refunded materials or influence while they move in to build their own. I would say this happens at least once a game to me. The empire has already gone hostile to me at this point, so adding these events was mostly redundant too.

Losing Scientists was already brought back for excavations. Personally, I was never a fan of how they removed the anomaly failures, since it makes the galaxy feel so tame. The way the system worked back then was annoying - a random death chance that you could not mitigate fully - but I think a much more interesting solution would have been to rework anomaly failures so they're calculated risks that can be avoided.

In case of first contact, that's pretty much the system we have. You can pretty much always prevent losing your civilian ships if you play it safe. Just like the player, the AI can only choose the abduction option if it has vision on one of your ships, so if you don't want to lose them, just back off and go into a different direction. If you really, really want to continue surveying towards the guy who might want to eat you, then that's a calculated risk that you take, especially when you also chose the proactive stance which greatly increases the success chance of negative events against you.

Overall, I find the entire "minigame" here very thematic. There are some things I don't like about it (why can't you just escort your Science Ship?), but the chance of losing scientists isn't one of them. You're not just losing a scientist to a random roll, you actually have great control over the outcome.


I do agree with most of the rest of your post, especially with how information is still too easy to get. A lot of the intel mechanic in general seems half-finished.

 

[Losttruppen]

AI rolls for contact take 50% longer than rolls for players

I didn't know that, must be getting unlucky. I've found the outcomes to be all over the place. I usually keep an Initial save file for my games and whenever I do a full restart I find I get wildly different results on the same empire contact. Sometimes they get me and I'm at phase 2 with 0%, others it's neck and neck, yet others I get it done in one year with the right event draws. The old system was more predictable, for better or worse.

Losing Scientists was already brought back for excavations.

This is true, and also since t0 sensors don't give science ships vision on the next system I tend to lose a few to marauders ever since 3.0.

I just find it odd to have the redundancy of scripted chance events as well as the hostile first contact where they pose the exact same risk: flee or get emergency FTL'd/destroyed. I would prefer if they did it manually and I could escort my ships as a countermeasure.

@GOLANX I agree the system is functional and could be improved with a few tweaks

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

I don't see this mentioned much since it has come online but I'm curious to see how people feel about the new mechanics. Personally I was quite keen on this being touched up, since it hasn't changed really at all since 1.0 and I never liked how early the map was fully revealed. Unfortunately I'm not very satisfied with how it currently plays.

The benefits I feel it has over the previous system are that the information about other empires and the galaxy are delayed and that you gain "first contact skill" making each subsequent contact a bit faster(this should be an envoy skill level in my opinion).

These are the problems I have with the gameplay of first contact in 3.0:

1. Most of the information about an empire is still presented up front, it just takes longer to do the multistep investigation vs the situation log society research.
2. It doesn't really tie into Intel(maybe base 10 is too high?). This is what I know about this empire immediately after contact which I feel doesn't leave much to the imagination. All their important borders with me are revealed as well as their homeworld.View attachment 764009
3. Envoys don't gain any traits or levels like a normal leader so the only thing that affects the first contact mission is luck and some choices in empire creation. This can be the difference between 200 influence to you or 200 influence to your direct competitors while borders are still being established. The outcome isn't much different from how it was pre3.0 but back then it was determined entirely by your research output, which I feel was more fair than the current system as most empires started on a similar footing for resources.
4. Losing construction and science ships with their scientist to random events is a mechanical regression. We already established how annoying it is to replace your ships, crew, and give them all new orders after a negative anomaly result, yet it was brought back in 3.0 so that now you can randomly lose a construction ship putting up an outpost on the chokepoint between you and your neighbour; the same empire who sometimes gets to shoo them away or outright destroy them with no refunded materials or influence while they move in to build their own. I would say this happens at least once a game to me. The empire has already gone hostile to me at this point, so adding these events was mostly redundant too.
5. Because it takes so long to establish your first few contacts, and most empires only have 2 envoys to employ, there is a significantly longer time before you can effectively close your borders to other empires which means additional competition with their science ships for anomalies before they sterilize everything in your vicinity. Going hostile solves this, but I feel most peaceful empires need the early game boost anomalies can give more than the conquerors do. I'm biased on this one though as I've always hated the change of AI empires sterilizing surveyed worlds, and stopping cheesers from getting a second chance at an anomaly has always seemed like a poor excuse.

What are everyone else's thoughts on the not so recent changes?

Edit: I forgot you now get a bit of influence(~24) from marauder and space fauna contacts. I can't remember if you received influence for meeting enclaves pre 3.0. Probably a net gain of about 100 influence per game on average.

1. Agree you shouldn't really see most of that stuff. You can tell way to much from the outliner.

2. Not sure what you mean. I don't see all theor borders usually just the one I touch and their capital. Someone pointed out previously there might be a need for the game engine to reveal the capital (same in EU for example).

3. Envoys feel barren, they should be made into full leaders, but I don't feel its as random as you make it out. There are multiple choices that you can do. Sure they are chance based, but that every roll.

4. Disagree heavily. The galaxy feels already tame and that creates actual tension. I wish anomalies would be able to actually destroy ships and dangerous star systems would provide a more lively galaxy with dangers lurking.

5. Not sure I get your point. Hostile empires get a penalty to researching first contact and that woudl result in even more piling up.

 

[Fenris_SE]

EDIT: I just realized I answered a completely different question than the OP asked lol. I guess some of it is on topic so I'll leave it.

I have mixed feelings about it tbh. I like the idea, just not sure I'm fond of how it works in Stellaris.

Every county in the world has their borders clearly marked. I'd expect the same thing in space, you don't want people building in your territory or even approaching it if you tell them to stay out. Not knowing how much territory an empire has seems a bit gamey to me. At the very least, I think you should be able to find out relatively quickly. As it is now, it feels like I have to constantly spam gather info repeatedly to find out something so insignificant.

I don't really like how hard it is to find out another empires ship design. It shouldn't too easy, after all that is something empires would want to keep secret. But I also feel that if you've been in fights with the other empire or witnessed fights within sensor range that it shouldn't be as hard as it is. And yes I know you can look at the after action report when you fight them, but that doesn't do anything for the fights you've witnessed. I suppose the Sentry Array helps with this but usually by the time I build one I don't really need to know the AI's ship design.

I've also had problems gathering info on other empires because supposedly their tech is too complicated to understand, even though they can rank as pathetic to me. But I guess even today, we have trouble understanding some things that were done even a few hundred years ago.

So yeah, I'm kind of up in the air about it, for every negative I can think of I can think of a reason for it. Guess I just need to play around with it more, just can't bring myself to use up a tradition for it.

 

[Scyobi_Empire]

Yeah 10 intel shouldn't reveal homeworld location or that they are Determined Exterminators,

"We hate you Organic Scum"
"Die die die die die die die die die"

 

[klopkr]

I wish some first contacts were easy and others were hard as heck to nearly impossible based on the types of empires.

Determined exterminators, Devouring Swarms. They shouldn't allow contact until war. Xenophobes should be outright uninterested in getting to know you at all. Xenophiles though are mutually helping in contact exchange should be easy breezy and maybe even come with surprising benefits!

 

[Serenity84]

Every county in the world has their borders clearly marked. I'd expect the same thing in space, you don't want people building in your territory or even approaching it if you tell them to stay out. Not knowing how much territory an empire has seems a bit gamey to me.

It's a common theme in military sci-fi. Learning borders from friendly nations or allies who have more intel is fine. But in an interstellar war against an unknown enemy how would you immediately know their borders or the location of their homeworld? Space is vast. Even a xenophobic empire that isn't at war with you probably would have little interest in telling you too much about the extent of their territory beyond your direct borders.

 

[Mufflon]

I roleplay heavily when I play Stellaris and part of that is making up these stories in my head about the other civilizations culture and history based on their ethics, government type, personality and civics. I love the early game when I find my neighbors and I get to flesh out the galaxy with all these different civilzations and imagine how they would relate to each other. With the current intel system it really bothers me that it takes so long to learn the other empires civics, because until I do they are just some generic militant/spiritual empire and any ideas I have about them might have to be retconned later when I learn more about them, it puts an annoying road bump in my roleplaying.

Might seem silly to a lot of the more hardcore gamers here but it really messes with my immersion