First contact is *way* too bloody fast

[Federalist girl]

Is it mostly because you want to engage in early conflicts that you find it to be too fast, or do you find it to be too fast even for, let's say, a xenophilic empire?

We're certainly open to changing to the times, and internally its been talked about, for example, changing the phases to 50 days, up from 30.

It's unlikely we'll make drastic changes to first contact by adding more complex interactions like some ideas have been mentioned here (albeit cool ideas), so let's focus on what can be tweaked to make the experience better.

Maybe I'm just unlucky at rolls but I always felt that first contact was frustratingly slow (playing as a xenophile). I felt like it took longer than the old society research timer events. Increasing the phase timer would make that feel worse -- I guess something like 50 wouldn't be the *end* of the world but suggestions like 60 or 90, which is double or triple, is WAY too much.

If anything maybe the phases should be based on your approach to first contact or be a slider option, I don't want it too long personally but I can understand the desire of other people to want first contact wars (even if that's not my playstyle).

 

[methegrate]

The biggest problem with First Contact is that none seem to happen after the 35 year mark or so. In two games the Galactic Community was fully formed before year 50, so I was able to get 4 & 6 First Contacts in each (less than a quarter of available other empires. The 6 was only possible because one of my neighbours started as a Hegemon). So yes I totally agree that they're way too fast. Part of the problem is also the inability to lay claims on neutral systems. This massively reduces the chance of grey conflicts, and borders tend to get locked down extremely quickly. Three things I'd add/change moving forward,

• Change the Galactic Community formation to be an event chain triggered on the first empire to make First Contact with 10 others or half the galaxy (whichever is greater). The Community would cost the founder a big chunk of Influence, but give them a massive diplomatic & opinion bonus which lasts until the Galactic Council is formed. Multiple empires can start this event chain, with each gaining bonuses proportional to their progress when the Community is actually formed. This would slow down the Community formation a ton and give a major reward to Xenophile Explorers.
• Let us place claims on neutral systems. Friendly Fed members will generally respect your claims, but a key system might also trigger a Fed confrontation which would create some friction for Galactic Union starts (one of the better origins in light of the pop growth changes. A nice bonus for Hegemonies would be to ignore this restriction if you're president). Hostile claims on a neutral system would drive up the Influence cost, letting us effectively create neutral zones between empires since claiming that territory is just too expensive.
• Closed Borders only applies to systems in which you have a starbase, until you've researched FTL Inhibitors. This makes chokepoints extremely important and allows for grey wars to continue after First Contact is properly made. Additionally, it encourages players to build Starbases in systems with valuable planets to protect those planets from the disruption of a Grey War.

I think these are all fabulous ideas. I would just change it a bit so that the neutral claims affect empires well beyond federations. Taking a neutral system claimed by anyone comes with a big diplomacy hit. It could also shift influence costs based on your overall relationship. Taking a neutral system by a friend costs more influence, taking one claimed by an enemy might actually be a discount. (It's that much easier to go take Alpha Proxima when you know the hated Blorg plan on establishing a base there.)

 

[Borgratz]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the feature sounded like it was supposed to create this new phase of exploring between the initial surveys and when everyone is blocked in and the galactic communitiy forms where you gradually get to know your neighbours through events and gathering intel.

What happened in my first game was that I had three neighbours, but instead of clicking once, watch a progress bar for a while and then get borders and communication, I had to click more often wait a while and then have borders and communication. No choices, no events, no opportunities to do anything special in the interim time. Didnt even really feel slower.

So this might really just be me not understanding the system enough or having bad luck with always getting the exact same outcomes with every contact, but what is the point of this feature? If all you do is click "yes, please still establish first contact Mr. Envoy" every month until it finishes, I would rather have my one click menu back. And I REALLY REALLY was looking forward to this, because I hated the one click menu/being boxed in so early.

 

[Bork_of_Boletaria]

I'll be another vote in the "it should take longer" camp!

By the way I had a weird occurrence when making first contact with a Common Ground origin AI, and I'm wondering if it is intentional or a know side effect or even a bug?

One of the 3 federation members flew a science ship into my space and I immediately got a the first contact event as expected marking that system. However I got two other first contact events over 10 jumps away where I had absolutely no visibility. These turned out to be the home systems of the other 2 federation members. So it seems meeting a federation ship triggers the event for all members of that federation and not just the one you've actually sighted. Intentional?

Edit: I've only started on game so for but I also felt the galactic community got founded rather quickly as well, which slowing down contact as a whole might also delay? That would be nice.

 

[Kinkness]

Is it mostly because you want to engage in early conflicts that you find it to be too fast, or do you find it to be too fast even for, let's say, a xenophilic empire?

We're certainly open to changing to the times, and internally its been talked about, for example, changing the phases to 50 days, up from 30.

It's unlikely we'll make drastic changes to first contact by adding more complex interactions like some ideas have been mentioned here (albeit cool ideas), so let's focus on what can be tweaked to make the experience better.

The whole point of first contact mechanic is to make the game feel more immersive, in depth, and take longer to reveal the whole galaxy. It does do this, but the first steps are too fast. Especially if you want to play as a purifier, or have the experience of an unknown race swarming you while you try to figure out what they're all about.

it completely eliminates this situation.

 

[sillyrobot]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the feature sounded like it was supposed to create this new phase of exploring between the initial surveys and when everyone is blocked in and the galactic communitiy forms where you gradually get to know your neighbours through events and gathering intel.

What happened in my first game was that I had three neighbours, but instead of clicking once, watch a progress bar for a while and then get borders and communication, I had to click more often wait a while and then have borders and communication. No choices, no events, no opportunities to do anything special in the interim time. Didnt even really feel slower.

So this might really just be me not understanding the system enough or having bad luck with always getting the exact same outcomes with every contact, but what is the point of this feature? If all you do is click "yes, please still establish first contact Mr. Envoy" every month until it finishes, I would rather have my one click menu back. And I REALLY REALLY was looking forward to this, because I hated the one click menu/being boxed in so early.

The two biggest changes are it no longer impedes social research and after first contact, your information about the new neighbor is heavily limited unless you do something to try and acquire it. I find it sufficient to gather intel to discover what type of government the neighbor has and then decide whether to befriend, rival, or gear for war.

That said, there is at least one mildly amusing alternative first-contact -- a ST:TNG Darmok-like race that speaks in small story snippets.

 

[Zetesofos]

Trying to start a first contact war is still a mission unto its own, sending my fleets in to fight usually gives me like 1-6months to do some damage before communications are established.

People pointed this out on pre-release streams but I wanted to give it benefit of the doubt first, but its true. Tried a few starts this evening testing changes, each time first contact is usually over inside of 9 months, that isnt even enough time for me to move my fleets against an AI in most cases, much less invade them. Just now I - a fanatic purifier - and an AI - a fanatic xenophobe/spiritualist made first contact in ~4 months. As far as I can see they havent met anyone else yet (its only 2218) so they shouldnt have "past experience" to work off.

This either needs to be lengthened to make xenophobia/first contact wars viable, or we need some sort of slider on game setup to determine how long first contact should take (0.5x - 1x - 10x should do it, seeing as the base time is 360 days according to the interface in the top right)

Its a buzzkill shipping 1.4k fleet power in only for the explosions to be prematurely cutoff by my ships being magically sent home when comms are discovered.
Also has anyone seen any Xenophobic AIs making an effort to invade them, yet?

I approve of a game slider at start!

 

[Dragatus]

Shameless self-promotion: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2459156710

 

[Caligula Caesar]

A 10 sided dice roll? Interesting. This should probably be 1, at least:
FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE = 0 # score for any insights to be granted

I guess this is the important bit for time
FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_SCORE = 10 # score for completing the stage

• If this variable was tied to a slider from game start you could bias First contact up and down that way. (e.g. setting it to 50 would make it take 5x as long on average, statistics being what they are, this would vary quite a bit too).
• Though setting first contact 'days to roll', to scale up and down from "30 / 50" days, would work too (probably more consistently than if you changed the score to complete the round).

Also, could go full DND - good luck rolling a perfect 20 lol

    FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MIN            = 1
    FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MAX         = 20
     FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 1            # score for any insights to be granted
     FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 20            # score for more insights to be granted
     FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 1            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE
     FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 10            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE
     FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_SCORE        = 50        # score for completing the stage
     FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS        = 60        # 30 days for 1 roll
     FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS_AI        = 90        # slower for AI to guarantee player has a chance to finish first

That's not quite all of it, there's also difficulty and skill bonus stuff. You can get more details by using console command "debugtooltip" and hovering over the % number in the first contact interface.

 

[Pancakelord]

That's not quite all of it, there's also difficulty and skill bonus stuff. You can get more details by using console command "debugtooltip" and hovering

Ah yes, I later realised just how many variables there are to manipulate, as I've started looking into modding it and the espionage system, which seems to be similar. Raising the difficulty properties a bit, not letting zero-rolls add clues + increasing the roll period seemed to do the trick for DC length.

Also, I've got to say, whomever created the system did an incredible job with making it flexible, the espionage "target Field" selector gives it a ton of flexibility, too, I've already been able to make a dozen test ops letting you target certain planet types, fleets, factions and various leaders, etc.

 

[Nebbie Zebbie]

Maybe I'm just unlucky at rolls but I always felt that first contact was frustratingly slow (playing as a xenophile). I felt like it took longer than the old society research timer events. Increasing the phase timer would make that feel worse -- I guess something like 50 wouldn't be the *end* of the world but suggestions like 60 or 90, which is double or triple, is WAY too much.

If anything maybe the phases should be based on your approach to first contact or be a slider option, I don't want it too long personally but I can understand the desire of other people to want first contact wars (even if that's not my playstyle).

I think if it is that you were unlucky at rolls, the solution then really would be more to just make there be more phases.

Playing just now as Rogue Servitors, I felt my first and third First Contacts were what I'd expect, but everything else felt too fast. Here's a few things I've noticed that make it less than ideal:

1. The first discovery in the chain always seems to be about how they're spacefaring. This makes no sense at all given the majority of First Contact events occur due to noticing a science or construction ship moving into a system; no duh they're spacefaring! The start should say the vague stuff like this, and then the first discovery should really be something impactful, like a choice on whether to use resources on an attempt to study their ships (which could be mistaken as an aggressive move...). I should note in general, a big criticism of archeology is the lack of choices, and that's why hearing there'd be choices on first contact was such a big deal, but in practice, I've found that the only choice I get is whether I want to be friendly with everyone, and whether on each established communication what initial stance I'd like (usually I just take the middle one so they can't spy on me very well).
2. Nowhere in the chain before outright discovery do I find where they might be from. I think it would really help out to know at least the closest system they're in. This could be part of the first discovery. I'd like to note that my first First Contact was with an empire that had a built-up system right next to where I found them, but it wasn't until my science ship went over there by mistake thinking they came from a different direction that I found out; it makes no sense there isn't some way to like, track their drive's emissions to figure out which hyperlane they came in on.
3. Every AI seemed to be "Hostile", and that really just didn't tell me anything. It went from knowing they're some organic "Hostile" entity to getting full comms every time. I'd really like some more in-between, like getting that they're just being cautious, or that they truly want to kill me.
4. Later first contacts tended to occur in systems far off in the galaxy that I couldn't get to, at the alien's homeworld. These just felt like busywork because I didn't expect to be able to interact at all, and it just meant assigning an envoy and waiting to get empire comms. I feel like these would work better if they used a fringe system and there were options to ask other empires about them.
5. Anything with stuff like space whales or amoebas is just over way too fast and with so little info that it feels just like the old special project garbage. I think it should progress in more stages due to their bizarre nature.

 

[HFY]

That's not quite all of it, there's also difficulty and skill bonus stuff. You can get more details by using console command "debugtooltip" and hovering over the % number in the first contact interface.

Is it possible to scale the discovery time by how many First Contact scenarios you've resolved?

For example, the first First Contact scenario might take 120 days per roll, and then once you finished it all future (including ongoing) First Contact rolls would resolve in 90 days, and then 60 days after your 2nd resolves, and so on until you get to 30 days at which the progression ends.

 

[grommile]

Closed Borders only applies to systems in which you have a starbase, until you've researched FTL Inhibitors. This makes chokepoints extremely important

i don't have any, because i'm playing on max hyperlanes because anything else is like pulling teeth.

 

[Pancakelord]

Every AI seemed to be "Hostile", and that really just didn't tell me anything. It went from knowing they're some organic "Hostile" entity to getting full comms every time. I'd really like some more in-between, like getting that they're just being cautious, or that they truly want to kill me.

I force spawned a pacifist fan xenophile empire (for the friendly encounter achievement) and it commented on how helpful and friendly they were, sending me their entire language lol. It seems to be heavily ethics driven, if theyre xenophobe/militarist, they are likely hostile, if xenophile/pacifist, friendly, anything else seems to be random

 

[Caligula Caesar]

Is it possible to scale the discovery time by how many First Contact scenarios you've resolved?

For example, the first First Contact scenario might take 120 days per roll, and then once you finished it all future (including ongoing) First Contact rolls would resolve in 90 days, and then 60 days after your 2nd resolves, and so on until you get to 30 days at which the progression ends.

The difficulty of first contact sites already goes down in such a manner

 

[Mattias]

Someone maek mod for this plz

Link in post #48

 

[HFY]

The difficulty of first contact sites already goes down in such a manner

Great.

In that case, just making the first few longer should already scale down to a faster process when they become routine.

You just need to work out how long a first contact war should reasonably take, and feed that into the first time progress number.

 

[Roboduck3000]

Also has anyone seen any Xenophobic AIs making an effort to invade them, yet?

None. They stay in their own space.

 

[Caligula Caesar]

The difficulty of first contact sites already goes down in such a manner

Correction: It's not the difficulty that goes down, it's the skill bonus that goes up. Amounts to the same, though.

We're going to be increasing the time for each stage to 50 for players and 75 for the AI in 3.0.3. (The AI has a longer stage time because it doesn't have to open the UI and click stuff). Hopefully this'll make the whole system feel better.

One thing to note about first contact wars, btw: you don't need to wait until you start vivisecting them to be hostile. You can right click on their ships and attack them as soon as you see them

 

[Jman5]

Correction: It's not the difficulty that goes down, it's the skill bonus that goes up. Amounts to the same, though.

We're going to be increasing the time for each stage to 50 for players and 75 for the AI in 3.0.3. (The AI has a longer stage time because it doesn't have to open the UI and click stuff). Hopefully this'll make the whole system feel better.

One thing to note about first contact wars, btw: you don't need to wait until you start vivisecting them to be hostile. You can right click on their ships and attack them as soon as you see them

Nice. Is it possible that you also allow us to destroy and/or capture outposts during this part of the game? Otherwise, from a cost/benefit point of view, the more peaceful approaches are much more beneficial. Perhaps tone down the civilian ship escape chance as well. It currently seems almost impossible to actually kill them.