First contact is *way* too bloody fast

[Annihilat0r]

Is it mostly because you want to engage in early conflicts that you find it to be too fast, or do you find it to be too fast even for, let's say, a xenophilic empire?

We're certainly open to changing to the times, and internally its been talked about, for example, changing the phases to 50 days, up from 30.

It's unlikely we'll make drastic changes to first contact by adding more complex interactions like some ideas have been mentioned here (albeit cool ideas), so let's focus on what can be tweaked to make the experience better.

Really happy to see that you are actively listening to the community. I concur that the First Contact happens too quickly at the moment. Regarding the more complex suggestions, I understand that you might not have the budget for a lot of changes, but how about simply giving the player (and the AI if possible) the option to immediately declare a war as soon as communications are established when they choose the hostile path, simililar to the "Immeditaly commence operation" checkbox. This way, the fleets won't go MIA when they are in enemy territory. I think this should not take much dev time off you budget and would help aggresive playstyles a lot.

 

[Hroppa]

Is it mostly because you want to engage in early conflicts that you find it to be too fast, or do you find it to be too fast even for, let's say, a xenophilic empire?

We're certainly open to changing to the times, and internally its been talked about, for example, changing the phases to 50 days, up from 30.

It's unlikely we'll make drastic changes to first contact by adding more complex interactions like some ideas have been mentioned here (albeit cool ideas), so let's focus on what can be tweaked to make the experience better.

I second it feeling too fast, even playing a peaceful xenophilic empire. (Xenophilic empires also get bonus envoys, so are making contact even faster.) I'd try doubling the phase to 60.

 

[monkeypunch87]

4. First contact is about 5x faster than I'd like as a baseline (a slider would be great, I'd push that slider as high as it would go)... bit of a personal preference but I hoped to be able to fight entire wars before figuring out what the enemy looks like as well as hiding my identity for as long as possible... but on first impression it all happens far too quickly for any chance of that it seems.

Found this in another thread, I wanted to share this sentiment here. Would love the possibility.

 

[Ffc]

I agree that it might be a bit too fast

I feel like I click on the button to go to the next first contact step every 3 seconds

 

[Addon]

Slider would be nice, but speaking of quick "fix" it should take at least double the time it takes now. But I could imagine even 90 days for changing the phase. I think it will help to create this feeling of unease and unknown that is really enjoyable.

 

[Derp Throat]

Adding the ever-familiar Stellaris refrain of "Did they do literally no testing of one of the expansion's flagpole features again, because this is obvious to any player from even the most cursory interaction with the mechanic"

I don't think they deny that any more.

 

[VerKer]

Question @grekulf concerning 1st contact - is it intentional, that even though we just made contact (=1st contact just ended) and my neighbour being a xenophobe isolationalist, we *still* learned how big / small their empire is? We also see on the map when the are conquering new systems. I supposed all this should be obscured to us, to be unfolded later but appearently it is not. Bug or feature? See screenshot attached.

 

[Koopa]

i haven't played a lot of patch and dlc but my first game is with a xenophile megacorp. (blokced in between marauders and a xenophile federation.. soo much customers ) it feels a bit fast. Then again my neighbours did send their language and where also xenophile. 2 side xenophile should be way faster. thats ok. and a xenophobe empire did do everything to be not found so quick and it did take some time.


(but i am a sucker for a slower game. i always thought 200 years standard game is sooo short. )

 

[mial42]

So these are the defines controlling first contact. It'd be pretty trivial to double or triple the time defines, and the first 6 defines seem to be responsible for the weird behavior of every single role granting some clues (since anything above 0 will give one clue and 0 is the min, while anything above 5 will give two clues).

FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MIN            = 1
        FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MAX         = 10
        FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 0            # score for any insights to be granted
        FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 5            # score for more insights to be granted
        FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 1            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE
        FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 2            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_SCORE        = 10        # score for completing the stage
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS        = 30        # 30 days for 1 roll
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS_AI        = 50        # slower for AI to guarantee player has a chance to finish first

 

[monkeypunch87]

So these are the defines controlling first contact. It'd be pretty trivial to double or triple the time defines, and the first 6 defines seem to be responsible for the weird behavior of every single role granting some clues (since anything above 0 will give one clue and 0 is the min, while anything above 5 will give two clues).

FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MIN            = 1
        FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MAX         = 10
        FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 0            # score for any insights to be granted
        FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 5            # score for more insights to be granted
        FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 1            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE
        FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 2            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_SCORE        = 10        # score for completing the stage
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS        = 30        # 30 days for 1 roll
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS_AI        = 50        # slower for AI to guarantee player has a chance to finish first

Great to know. So, an easy fix would be to give one insight only at a roll of 3 to 8 and two insights at 9 and 10. That way, you don't have to increase the days for a roll and you don't get an insight every time.

 

[Pancakelord]

So these are the defines controlling first contact. It'd be pretty trivial to double or triple the time defines, and the first 6 defines seem to be responsible for the weird behavior of every single role granting some clues (since anything above 0 will give one clue and 0 is the min, while anything above 5 will give two clues).

FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MIN            = 1
        FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MAX         = 10
        FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 0            # score for any insights to be granted
        FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 5            # score for more insights to be granted
        FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 1            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE
        FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 2            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_SCORE        = 10        # score for completing the stage
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS        = 30        # 30 days for 1 roll
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS_AI        = 50        # slower for AI to guarantee player has a chance to finish first

A 10 sided dice roll? Interesting. This should probably be 1, at least:
FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE = 0 # score for any insights to be granted

I guess this is the important bit for time
FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_SCORE = 10 # score for completing the stage

• If this variable was tied to a slider from game start you could bias First contact up and down that way. (e.g. setting it to 50 would make it take 5x as long on average, statistics being what they are, this would vary quite a bit too).
• Though setting first contact 'days to roll', to scale up and down from "30 / 50" days, would work too (probably more consistently than if you changed the score to complete the round).

Also, could go full DND - good luck rolling a perfect 20 lol

    FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MIN            = 1
    FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MAX         = 20
     FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 1            # score for any insights to be granted
     FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 20            # score for more insights to be granted
     FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 1            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE
     FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 10            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE
     FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_SCORE        = 50        # score for completing the stage
     FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS        = 60        # 30 days for 1 roll
     FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS_AI        = 90        # slower for AI to guarantee player has a chance to finish first

 

[safe-keeper]

some sort of slider on game setup to determine how long first contact should take

I love this idea.

 

[Jman5]

Is it mostly because you want to engage in early conflicts that you find it to be too fast, or do you find it to be too fast even for, let's say, a xenophilic empire?

We're certainly open to changing to the times, and internally its been talked about, for example, changing the phases to 50 days, up from 30.

It's unlikely we'll make drastic changes to first contact by adding more complex interactions like some ideas have been mentioned here (albeit cool ideas), so let's focus on what can be tweaked to make the experience better.

For me, it's mostly about the quick turnaround time when it comes to hostile empires in the early game (ie: militarist, xenophobes, genocidal). I would like that period to be extended to provide more opportunity for conflict and tension.

Beyond that I would like the conflict itself to feel more meaningful. I mentioned earlier that when I attacked an outpost, it merely disabled it. I would like it to be either destructible or capturable. Perhaps in the event that your borders are touching, you could capture those outposts, but otherwise they are destroyed.

This should also cause diplomatic problems. In my game, I initiated hostilities, attacked a science vessel, disabled an outpost, but received no relationship hit when first contact initiated.

Making that first contact period feel more impactful and unique really helps create the sort of interesting and emergent storylines that make Stellaris great. You lose an outpost during the early game and that sets the stage for future conflict down the road.

Whatever you do try to make the the first few first-contacts matter in how the game goes from there.

 

[fourteenfour]

Trying to start a first contact war is still a mission unto its own, sending my fleets in to fight usually gives me like 1-6months to do some damage before communications are established.

This either needs to be lengthened to make xenophobia/first contact wars viable, or we need some sort of slider on game setup to determine how long first contact should take (0.5x - 1x - 10x should do it, seeing as the base time is 360 days according to the interface in the top right)

Its a buzzkill shipping 1.4k fleet power in only for the explosions to be prematurely cutoff by my ships being magically sent home when comms are discovered.
Also has anyone seen any Xenophobic AIs making an effort to invade them, yet?

Frankly I think Fanatic Xenophobes should have the option to block all attempts to open communications. Actually this should be open to all non Xenophile empires. Plus the teleporting ships gimmick needs to be done away with.

So what do I suggest to remedy the teleporting a fleet away? Simple, unless you open communications and agree to leave you don't leave. You must declare war at that moment else your ships will leave. If your ships are attacking another empire you do not have communications with they later are established you are in an automatic state of war. The game should track exhaustion from the first moment of combat but not reveal who your opponent is until you successfully invade or otherwise open comms

 

[DrFranknfurter]

So these are the defines controlling first contact. It'd be pretty trivial to double or triple the time defines, and the first 6 defines seem to be responsible for the weird behavior of every single role granting some clues (since anything above 0 will give one clue and 0 is the min, while anything above 5 will give two clues).

FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MIN            = 1
        FIRST_CONTACT_DICE_ROLL_MAX         = 10
        FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 0            # score for any insights to be granted
        FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE    = 5            # score for more insights to be granted
        FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 1            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_LOWER_INSIGHT_SCORE
        FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_REWARD    = 2            # insights granted for FIRST_CONTACT_HIGHER_INSIGHT_SCORE
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_SCORE        = 10        # score for completing the stage
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS        = 30        # 30 days for 1 roll
        FIRST_CONTACT_DISCOVERY_DAYS_AI        = 50        # slower for AI to guarantee player has a chance to finish first

I think this is the same bug with espionage actions going too quickly as well, you can't really fail either and get 0 insights no matter how difficult it is... and that means that any difficulty modifiers also fail to do anything (extreme difficulty cannot slow down the progress if it always progresses by 1 point every operation phase). Also it's far too easy to get higher insight rewards.

It really should be possible to have bad rolls that don't progress the chain. I think once that's fixed things will be a lot slower and we'll have to see then if the base speed is too fast or too slow. I suspect it'll still be at least 3x too fast for my tastes (I'd crank the slider to max if any slider existed). I'd rather first contact was something more meaningful and gradual rather than being over before you can do anything. Mostly I want to play as either the Dominion or the Romulans, the Dominion hiding their true appearance while they know everything about you (Cautious + massive Codebreaking and Encryption), and the Romulans fighting entire wars before they even see each other face-to-face. First contact wars are a cool concept... but it only works if it's not bugging out.

I just assume this is some debugging stuff to make things go much faster for testing purposes that someone forgot to change back to the proper values (I've done that before).

Similarly I wouldn't mind loosening the cap on relative difficulty so you can eventually be almost immune to espionage (once the rolls are fixed). That way you could open up things like spying on Fallen Empires, it just wouldn't do anything thanks to their massive relative encryption, at least not until you rival them technologically. The defines like this:

Spoiler

        SPY_NETWORK_ENCRYPTION_DECRYPTION_BONUS_MULT = -0.10    #Encryption vs decryption bonus scale, multiplied with the difference between those values.
        SPY_NETWORK_ENCRYPTION_DECRYPTION_BONUS_MIN = -0.4    # Lower bounds to encryption vs decryption (bad for attacker)
        SPY_NETWORK_ENCRYPTION_DECRYPTION_BONUS_MAX = 0.4    # Upper bounds to encryption vs decryption (good for attacker)
        SPY_NETWORK_MAXIMUM_ASSIGNED_ASSETS = 1            # Maximal number of assets that can be assigned to spy network
        SPY_NETWORK_RELATIVE_ENCRYPTION_DIFFICULTY_MULT = 1    # Difficulty modifier to be multiplied to the relative encryption
        SPY_NETWORK_RELATIVE_ENCRYPTION_DIFFICULTY_MIN = -4        # How low can excess Codebreaking drop the difficulty of operations? Negative numbers good for the spy.
        SPY_NETWORK_RELATIVE_ENCRYPTION_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 4        # How high can excess Encryption increase the difficulty of operations? Positive numbers good for the defender.
        SPY_NETWORK_RELATIVE_ENCRYPTION_MIN = -4    # Lower bounds for relative encryption
        SPY_NETWORK_RELATIVE_ENCRYPTION_MAX = 4    # Upper bounds for relative encryption

These settings seem off to me.

It feels strange that researching new techs or applying Civics and Ascension perks does nothing after the first couple of techs that add a total of +4/+4 to encryption and codebreaking (assuming you have a tech lead), I hit the cap by 2275 (probably much earlier I wasn't checking) with a non-espionage build on my first game (no Psy powers, Cutthroat Politics etc). Empires are all Very weak so have +4 difficulty to their operations against me (that does nothing as they can't fail rolls), and I'm capped at having -4 difficulty (that does mean I roll high and end operations sooner so that's something at least).

Although amusingly the Edict Bureau of Espionage does stack on top as it's applied as a separate empire modifier lowering difficulty instead of increasing codebreaking so you can get -6 to difficulty of operations, effectively -10 if you have a matching asset with the +4 to rolls from skill bonus.

The result is that it's really easy to make operations succeed (effectively -10 to the rolls you have to make), impossible to make them fail (rolling low each operation phase still adds insight) making espionage rolls really heavily biased in favour of the attacker.

If the max relative encryption and max difficulty are relaxed then you could let players spy on fallen empires without them always succeeding at stealing their technology (I assume that's why players aren't allowed to spy on them), with their immense relative encryption and codebreaking you'd have no chance of succeeding on any rolls against them and maybe wouldn't even earn any intel progress to have the option to launch a mission. If you have -200 max infiltration level from relative encryption then you'd only be able to perform espionage on Fallen Empires when you equal them in tech and negate their relative encryption bonus.

 

[Anschau]

Is it mostly because you want to engage in early conflicts that you find it to be too fast, or do you find it to be too fast even for, let's say, a xenophilic empire?

We're certainly open to changing to the times, and internally its been talked about, for example, changing the phases to 50 days, up from 30.

It's unlikely we'll make drastic changes to first contact by adding more complex interactions like some ideas have been mentioned here (albeit cool ideas), so let's focus on what can be tweaked to make the experience better.

I've only done two play throughs, both randomized, and I will say having the Xenophobe the first time I did notice that first contact took much longer, but I don't think it would have been long enough for a war if I had been inclined. I think making the phases 50 would be better.

I mean it's not obviously broken, just needs tweaking. Now Intel/Espionage rolls are broken broken. Someone really needs to look over that.

 

[klopkr]

The first contact situation is complicated because on one hand you are really limited in what you can do before you properly contact them so finishing your contacts ASAP is useful for most empires unless you want to fight them.

Not only should agressive contact allow you to start off in a war (i'd even make it an all out war on first contact) maybe it should allow you to close contact with them and slow the process down so much they can't make contact for years.

 

[The_F]

I prefer a slower pace in my games and agree, that first contact feels way to fast.

As always, different players prefer a different experience in their games, so I'm in "team slider".

 

[methegrate]

Is it mostly because you want to engage in early conflicts that you find it to be too fast, or do you find it to be too fast even for, let's say, a xenophilic empire?

We're certainly open to changing to the times, and internally its been talked about, for example, changing the phases to 50 days, up from 30.

It's unlikely we'll make drastic changes to first contact by adding more complex interactions like some ideas have been mentioned here (albeit cool ideas), so let's focus on what can be tweaked to make the experience better.

That makes perfect sense. While it's fun to noodle around with bigger mechanical change ideas on the forum, you guys only have so many hours in the day.

With a caveat that so far I've only played 3.x for about an hour, so take my criticisms with a huge grain of salt, I think my first impressions are:

Is it mostly because you want to engage in early conflicts that you find it to be too fast, or do you find it to be too fast even for, let's say, a xenophilic empire?

I find it to be too fast in general. I love the idea of having first contact give the map more mystery, and having it emphasize exploration well into the game. While I think the potential for conflict is a good part of the first contact system, so is that Star Trek feeling of bumping into the stations and colonies of an unknown people. But of the five empires I've met so far, first contact wrapped up before my science ships got much past their first systems, and certainly long before I had any reason to send warships.

That's doubly true, literally, because the other empire also has envoys they're using to scout you. So even when I was out of envoys, first contact resolved itself pretty quickly anyway.

Finally, I'm not sure I understand what the conflict drivers are supposed to be in first contact. Setting aside the metagame of players who actively want to create a first contact war for its own sake, I don't feel like I see where the system creates conflicting wants or need beyond the existing land rush of the early game. (And the answer may be that it doesn't. First contact may just make it easier for aggressive empires to start a conflict without starting a war.)

It's unlikely we'll make drastic changes to first contact by adding more complex interactions like some ideas have been mentioned here (albeit cool ideas), so let's focus on what can be tweaked to make the experience better.

My thoughts would be, with again the grain of salt that I've only just played with the system a little and I'm absolutely not sure what's a practical tweak vs. a big change:

- Make first contact longer in general. I love the air of mystery and exploration it gives to the map, I'd really like that to last.

- Have dramatically different first contact times for different empires. I'm sure this exists already, but I like the idea of having some empires remain an enigma well into the game. (To continue the Star Trek reference, how the Federation had been exploring Dominion space for ages before learning what this "Dominion" even was.)

- Borrow from archeology's system of occasional zero-sum choices. Specifically I would suggest events that can set back your first contact process and others that might drive conflict. "While visiting a station belonging to the Rho Aliens, their commander offered Envoy McFribbles something on a plate." Randomly for any given instance it might be a translator and advance contact, poisonous to our species and kill the envoy, or the commander's offspring and tank relations if McFribbles eats it. Or just something as simple as "Envoy Davenport's expedition has stalled out. She is requesting additional resources. Spend X Energy/Influence/Alloys or add X time to first contact."


- Finally, while considerably outside the realm of "tweaks," consider integrating first contact into the survey/anomalies mechanic.

I've always loved the idea of integrating the anomalies system more into diplomacy. While randomly specific, I kind of think The Prince is one of the best events in the game because of how well it does this. By the point you find it, the resources vs. opinion shift are generally both pretty consequential. Too, yet again returning to Star Trek, I feel like this would give the sense of your explorers and captains driving your empire's story forward.

Small events could be a pop up with a bit of story that advances/sets back first contact a little. Large ones could be something like choices about whether to spend resources/influence, take sides in a conflict, or even recognize a mysterious empire's apparent claim over a system. ("While there is no outpost here, the Jinx has spotted numerous Rho Aliens operating local mining operations in the Boxcar System. We can still claim this system for our own, but it will likely anger this species. // "While there is no outpost, we do see what appears to be some sort of artistic or spiritual installation orbiting the moon of Boxcar III. Its material composition is similar to that used by the Rho Aliens. We can still claim this system for our own. How the Rho Aliens will respond remains unknown.")

Again, I like The Prince as a model for this.

 

[Jaxck]

The biggest problem with First Contact is that none seem to happen after the 35 year mark or so. In two games the Galactic Community was fully formed before year 50, so I was able to get 4 & 6 First Contacts in each (less than a quarter of available other empires. The 6 was only possible because one of my neighbours started as a Hegemon). So yes I totally agree that they're way too fast. Part of the problem is also the inability to lay claims on neutral systems. This massively reduces the chance of grey conflicts, and borders tend to get locked down extremely quickly. Three things I'd add/change moving forward,

• Change the Galactic Community formation to be an event chain triggered on the first empire to make First Contact with 10 others or half the galaxy (whichever is greater). The Community would cost the founder a big chunk of Influence, but give them a massive diplomatic & opinion bonus which lasts until the Galactic Council is formed. Multiple empires can start this event chain, with each gaining bonuses proportional to their progress when the Community is actually formed. This would slow down the Community formation a ton and give a major reward to Xenophile Explorers.
• Let us place claims on neutral systems. Friendly Fed members will generally respect your claims, but a key system might also trigger a Fed confrontation which would create some friction for Galactic Union starts (one of the better origins in light of the pop growth changes. A nice bonus for Hegemonies would be to ignore this restriction if you're president). Hostile claims on a neutral system would drive up the Influence cost, letting us effectively create neutral zones between empires since claiming that territory is just too expensive.
• Closed Borders only applies to systems in which you have a starbase, until you've researched FTL Inhibitors. This makes chokepoints extremely important and allows for grey wars to continue after First Contact is properly made. Additionally, it encourages players to build Starbases in systems with valuable planets to protect those planets from the disruption of a Grey War.