First conflict where battle losses outnumber attrition ones?

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Herbert West

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As the title says.


One can read a lot about losses in battle, but I imagine that without modern sanitation, and campaign was literally plagued by everything from dysentery to cholera to actual plagues.

So, when did the situation improve to the point where you could trust your army not to melt away simply due to walking?
 

ap08

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Probably the Franco-Prussian war.

And this is something that is horribly modeled in Paradox (and not just Paradox) games up to and including Victoria. The idea that a province can support a certain army size without attrition is just plain wrong before 20th century. There should be very significant attrition at any army size, even below the so called "supply limit".
 

Narwhal

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Except if you consider that "supply limit" means you can coerce / conscript on the way as many guys as you lose to disease / desertion on average.
 

Amallric

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And this is something that is horribly modeled in Paradox (and not just Paradox) games up to and including Victoria. The idea that a province can support a certain army size without attrition is just plain wrong before 20th century. There should be very significant attrition at any army size, even below the so called "supply limit".

I don't know. Pretty sure a large army loses proportionally more to attrition than a smaller one, because a larger army means less opportunities for good lodgings, food, more crowding, more chances for an epidemic to spread etc.
 

Raczynski

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And this is something that is horribly modeled in Paradox (and not just Paradox) games up to and including Victoria. The idea that a province can support a certain army size without attrition is just plain wrong before 20th century. There should be very significant attrition at any army size, even below the so called "supply limit".

Well EU series starts in the 15th century with standing armies ranging from 1000s to 100000s which is already widely unrealistic, at least in the European context.
 

Hari ganesh

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Well EU series starts in the 15th century with standing armies ranging from 1000s to 100000s which is already widely unrealistic, at least in the European context.
How is it unrealistic even in european context the romans had a far larger standing armies and there are numerous instances of a single ruler being able raise 100000 troops even in the middle ages.
 

Raczynski

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How is it unrealistic even in european context the romans had a far larger standing armies and there are numerous instances of a single ruler being able raise 100000 troops even in the middle ages.

The Romans and their armies were long gone. Up until 17th/18th century, most European armies would be raised for a campaign and demobilized after it ended. Even the most powerful countries couldn't afford to keep more than a few thousand people on permanent basis (royal guards etc.). In EU, France can easily recruit 100k troops in 1450 and keep them for perpetuity.
 

Lord Tim

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The Romans and their armies were long gone.

Though it's not impossible that some of the Roman wars answer the primary question, i.e. they were the first wars in which more troops were battle casualties than lost from other means. Their logistics system was better than that of most other armies through to the 19th century, and in civil wars in particular they could rely on that to keep the armies in the field but you'd still get some very hard fought battles. And since many of the civil wars were short and ended in a rather bloody battle, I think they might fit the bill.
 

krieger11b

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Are we talking only deaths here or including people that either were made permanetely unfit for battle due to disease? Being really the same thing except their are even more of a hinderance than dead soldiers. Do we include starvation from incompetent/poor logistics, quite a common theme in the EUIV timeline from what I have been reading, I am looking at you Austria!
 

Avernite

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of course the lame answer is 'when Ug killed Bug over the berries', as the thread title doesn't specify overly much.

As to the first war: how about the 100 days? It was all over rather quick, so did the conflict end before attrition could surpass the waterloo campaign?
 

Jorlaan

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I think the Romans certainly lost more casualties in battles than to attrition in the Second Punic War.
 

Finnish Dragon

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I think the Romans certainly lost more casualties in battles than to attrition in the Second Punic War.

I think you are right about that. I calculated the Roman battle losses against Hannibal in Italy from 218 BC to 203 BC using Wikipedia articles and my result was that Romans lost around 180k men in battles alone. I suspect that the real figure of Roman and their allies losses is probably around or more than 200k men killed in battles.
 

DoomBunny

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DarthJF

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Well EU series starts in the 15th century with standing armies ranging from 1000s to 100000s which is already widely unrealistic, at least in the European context.
Yeah, EU series makes European medieval armies proportionally too large, while Asian countries that actually could field armies with tens of thousands of men, have army limits of few thousand.
 

Kovax

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It's not so much a matter of fielding huge armies, but one of fielding those armies for prolonged periods of time at long distances from home.

The ancient Assyrians were noted for fielding large armies, and sending them hundreds of miles to undertake prolonged sieges. You don't do that without some sort of logistics and support, but we have very little information about it, aside from things like a stray mention about bringing wagonloads of extra arrows on one campaign, and claims of large numbers of carts being used to carry back loot after a few of the sieges. The fact that the carts were there at all indicates that logistics were an actual concern, but doesn't indicate whether they arrived with the army, or whether they were part of subsequent regular supply caravans.

The Greeks fielded tens of thousands of men on many occasions, but rarely more than a few days march from home, and they were often forced to return home in time for planting or harvesting.

Rome is the first case where we have any sort of detailed records about supply. Rome's protracted war and long siege against Veii, several centuries BC, required an army in the field continuously for several years (roughly 5+), which led to Rome's creation of a permanent army with regular pay and provisions. That may have been the key to many of Rome's later successes, where they lost their fair share of battles, but won most wars due to their better logistics and principle focus on strategy rather than tactics. Rome could not only put a lot of men into the field, but keep them there for as long as necessary, and could wait until the opposing army was already breaking apart due to shortages of food and/or water for the optimum moment to attack. During Gaius Julius' career, they used a combination of constructed roads, bridges, fortified supply depots at regular intervals, wagon convoys, cargo ships, trade deals with the locals, and whatever else was required to insure regular supply to their field armies.

Without that or a loose feudal system of vassals to extend your control, conquering and holding an empire more than a few days travel from your seat of government was close to impossible. You can only support so many men by requisitioning supplies from the locals as you pass, and can only carry supplies for a few days without regular resupply. With food shortages, limited water sources, and high levels of stress, disease and other problems are practically guaranteed. Only with a steady source of fresh food and water is it feasible to carry out extended campaigns with large armies.
 

Lord Finnish

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I would say that small scale wars had less attrition fatalities. But where do we draw the line? Does an army of 1000 fighting another 1000 for two years constitute a war in this sense? Is a tribal feud a war?
 

Herbert West

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I'd like to narrow it down to some vague description like "wars you learn about during school"/"wars that have av well-documented wikipedia entry".