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I mean I find it strange that the earlist thing written down in the Arabic language happens to be the most sacred book as well. I suppose the same thing could be said about the Pentatuch. Correct me if I am wrong, but we have no books with an identifiable author in Arabic before the Koran 620 ce.
I find that hard to believe. Languages evolve, they are not usually created all-at-once in one book.
The Arabic language was used before the advent of Islam.
http://www.netmuslims.com/info/finearts.html
http://www.netmuslims.com/info/finearts.html
spelled "pentateuch"; the first five books of the hebrew bible, or old testament, also called the torah or law of moses
why do you find that strange? if you just learned to write back then, what would you record?
the earliest written works in greek (using the "phoenician" script, that is) are the iliad and the odyssey, both of which were held in the highest religious esteem
hm.. i never thought of it that way before. Islam did stimulate an incrible wave of Arab literature and scientific discovery.
hmm..
now, what was the second book?
Illiad and Odyssey wernt religious tales! They were storys of Heroes, the ancient Greek Action Movie!(with elements of gods and stuff) They would of been told to kings and the like at festivals, Well, they were actually poems that Homer memeroised, he never wrote them down, which is amazing, imagine having to remember all the Odyssey?
Not entirely true Kurek. The Illiad and Odyssey had a place in Greek society not dissimilar to the place the Bible has in ours. They were also religious when you consider that most Greeks believed these events really happened. Not necessarily precisely the way Homer portrays, but basically that way.
Actually when you look at the Illiad and Odyssey they are very clever creations because there are plenty of repitions, helps the memory.
Iostephanos - I remember hearing that the Illiad and Odyssey were written in Phoenician somewhere, but have never been able to locate the evidence for it. Could you please enlighten?
I´ve never heard of a Phoenician origin or translation of the Homeric epics. However the Ugaritic myths as well as the Gilgamesh epic certainly influenced the Iliad, Odyssey and Hesiodos´Theogonia - possibly through Phoenician middlemen.
From what I understand the Homeric epics were supposed to be sung or recited, perhaps accompanied by music, and the meter and use of epithets would have functioned as mnemnonic devices (beside the aesthetic effect).
The style of Arabic employed in the Quran became a model for later formal literature- it´s not that Arabic didn´t exist before.
In Sweden the first translated Bible, in the 1500´s, had a similar effect - it became a model for spelling and grammar. Did the King James Bible have a similar impact on English?
Cheers,
Vandelay
From what I understand the Homeric epics were supposed to be sung or recited, perhaps accompanied by music, and the meter and use of epithets would have functioned as mnemnonic devices (beside the aesthetic effect).
The style of Arabic employed in the Quran became a model for later formal literature- it´s not that Arabic didn´t exist before.
In Sweden the first translated Bible, in the 1500´s, had a similar effect - it became a model for spelling and grammar. Did the King James Bible have a similar impact on English?
Cheers,
Vandelay
Yes, the King James Bible has a similar effect, but it was much later, so its effect is perhaps less because of greater 'competition' if you know what I mean.
Shakespeare has been the other great influence.
Shakespeare has been the other great influence.
i wish i knew; i think i remember hearing that both showed some influences from the near eastern epics, but i meant "phoenician" script referring to the greek alphabet as opposed to linear b adapted from the minoans
i wasn't sure if my statement would then be true regarding the "first" thing written being religious in nature, since, although the names of most of the olympian gods are attested in the tablets, i heard they were mostly inventories
steph
Having read a translation of Gilgamesh I find it easy to accept Near Eastern influences.
The Liner B tablets do mention Gods - mostly the ones in Pylos iirc. And I have a feeling that Hesiod may have been written down first. I know Peisistratus is traditionally the first to have ordered Homer written down, but I don't think anyone knows when Hesiod was written.
The great trajadies of the ancient world were the ones which were the most safeguarded. That doesn't mean that they were the first to be written-down, it just means they were the only writen-down literature to survive. I would asume the same goes for al koran.
As to English, the King James Bible was a throw-back to slightly more antiquated language. Most English or Language Scholars generally agree that modern English was more influenced by Shakesphere and his contemporaries, and therefore begins just somewhere before Shakesphere.
As to English, the King James Bible was a throw-back to slightly more antiquated language. Most English or Language Scholars generally agree that modern English was more influenced by Shakesphere and his contemporaries, and therefore begins just somewhere before Shakesphere.
The Linear B tablets do mention gods but mostly in context of offerings not myths.
I think the first Greek alphabetic inscriptions are usually names (denoting ownership) on various objects - ceramics, amphoare, jewellery etc.
IIRC the Iliad and Odyssey were written in a "final" version in 5th century (or late 6th century) Athens. Have they been anlyzed in the same way as the OT - looking for different "redactors" and such?
Cheers,
Vandelay
I think the first Greek alphabetic inscriptions are usually names (denoting ownership) on various objects - ceramics, amphoare, jewellery etc.
IIRC the Iliad and Odyssey were written in a "final" version in 5th century (or late 6th century) Athens. Have they been anlyzed in the same way as the OT - looking for different "redactors" and such?
Cheers,
Vandelay
Late 6th - though the oldest remaining fragments date from the 2ndC BC I think, from the sands of Egypt. I don't know what the earliest complete, or near-complete, manuscript is. A few scholars think there may have been written versions before this, or maybe summaries, but that is supposition.
Intensively analysed, not that I know much about it.
From what I do remember however both works seem to be something of a conglomeration of stories dating from as late at the 9thC BC, and upto several centuries earlier. I don't know though from when the earliest portions date. the main portion seeming to be fourteenth-eleventh centuries.
What is interesting are some of the phrases used - wine-dark sea is a good example - that we simply are not quite sure what this means, and there is a good chance it is a genuine Mycenaean term.
The Luther bible did the same thing for the German language. Luther was the first to write down innumerable expressions, slogans and proverbs that are a fixed part of modern German. He also shaped in a major way the way German words are spelled, as well as style and pacing in poetry and prose.