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nijis

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Even with the DLCs, many players feel that really engaging religious dynamics are missing from the game. The CK2 time period isn't called the Age of Faith for nothing. At least until the 14th century, in the Muslim and Christian worlds at least, pretty much every major social question was framed through religion. In the game, the player is affected by these debates, but rarely has a chance to participate meaningfully in them.
This would be my idea for a more dynamic religious model. It involves some features already in the game, but in a more systematized manner. It's designed to be applied to Sunnis and Catholics, but I think it could work for most other non-pagan faiths as well, with some fine-tuning. With this system, rulers can promote certain theologies in their domains, reaping certain benefits but running the risk of unleashing forces that they cannot control.
It's key to distinguish between theologies and heresies. Theologies are a movement within a faith. They however recognize other theologies as true members of the faith. Heresies, in contrast, hold the mainstream branch of the faith to be hopelessly corrupt, and are themselves considered to be hopelessly in error. You argue with rival theologies. You crush heresies. Theologies, however, can become heresies – either because a more radical wing has emerged from them, or because the mainstream religious leadership has declared a crackdown.
Characters can adopt theologies. Religious holdings can also have theologies, representing the dominant thinking within that institution. Not every temple or character will have a theology, but the ones with high learning usually will.
In addition to this, provinces will have a new variable – Intellectual Foment – regarding the amount of discussion and dissent going on in that province. Provinces with high Intellectual Foment means that the local clergy and intelligentsia are excited by new ideas. But this can easily enough lead to unrest – just as Lollardy set the stage for the Peasants' Revolt in 14th century England, for example.

Reformist – This theology wants to maintain the religion's moral authority, even at the price of increasing local foment. Above all, they want to focus on the removal of clerics who exhibit one or more sins. Catholic reformists tend to support the power of the pope over that of temporal rulers. An example would be Pope Gregory VII and the Cluniac reformers. Temples that have this theology gain extra morality for their ruler.

Regionalist - Wants to maintain local traditions, even if they conflict with the church, and also wants to maintain an alliance with the local rulers. Would support the ruler in clashes with the Pope. Regionalists might feel strongly about seemingly minor questions of ritual or doctrine to emphasize their independence. The Greek patriarchy prior to the 1054 schism might be considered a Regionalist theology, as would the Celtic church and the church in England before 1066, in which Archbishop Stigand defined Rome's ban on holding multiple sees.

Humanist – This theology aims to reconcile reason and revelation. It clears the way for new ways of looking at old prohibitions, but conservatives fear that it can lead to an “anything goes” mentality. It appeals mostly to educated elites. The Mu'tazilites, Ibn Rushd, Abelard, and of course the Renaissance Humanists would be examples. Humanist temples gain extra technology points.

Evangelical – This theology wants to uphold the primacy of revelation. Its adherants don't necessarily denigrate reason, but tend to argue that scripture should be read on its own terms. They dislike tradition that does not have a scriptural basis, and think that educated and sincere believers can be just as holy as the clergy. They encourage all believers to read key religious texts. Examples would include Mohammed al-Ghazali, the Lollards, and possibly the iconoclasts. A more modern example in Hinduism would be the Arya Samaj Because they encourage literacy and discourage big gifts to the church, an evangelical temple creates an income boost to the province.

Spiritualist – This theology wants to increase the piety of ordinary believers. It encourages members of the clergy to forsake worldly wealth and live among the people. Conservatives worry that it can lead to a full-scale assault on the wealth of the Church/scholarly establishment. Examples of spiritualists would be Sufis or Franciscans. Spiritualist temples give a bonus to nearby conversion attempts, and can also spawn significant quantities of troops for holy wars.

Reactionary - This theology wants to suppress other theologies. It game terms, it wants to reduce Intellectual Foment. It believes this is best accomplished by banning criticism of the religious establishment, presenting a front of unity among the clergy/ulama, and in general getting everyone to mind their own business.

These are the different varieties of theology. A specific theology (like the Humanist theology of Muatazilism, or the Evangelical theology of Lollardism) will fall into one of these categories. Muatazilism may rise and fall, but new Humanist theologies can emerge.
Note that all theologies but Regionalist and Establishment will gradually increase the Intellectual Foment of a province. So, while most theologies provide a benefit, over time they risk feeding revolt.

Absorption: Ideas lose force over time. The impact of a theology will fade as it is absorbed into the mainstream. So, let's say there's a blossoming of humanism in France in the 12th century. (Let's call it Scholasticism.) Fifty years later, it will only provide a fraction of the original tech bonus – and the cost to Intellectual Foment will be lower too. A hundred years later, the Scholasticism tag will vanish completely. But, as the ideas are absorbed, they will provide a small bonus to tech for Catholicism as a whole. Of course, there may well be a new and more daring outbreak of humanism at a later date.
So, if a religion can withstand the disruptive force of a new theology, it will eventually be to the religion's benefit.

How can the player affect this?
First, you can appoint clerics with a specific theology as heads of temples. A cleric with a high Learning has a good chance of converting that temple to his or her theology. Temples can also spread their theology to neighbors, which will happen more quickly if there's a high-Learning cleric of the same theology in charge.
You might also endow favored temples (like, say, Cluny) with huge libraries, giving them a bonus in spreading their theology.
However, if you want to take a little more drastic step, you can Anathematize a theology. It becomes a heresy. Any Muslim ruler of King-level or higher may take this step for their realm, but in Catholicism it would have to be the Pope. This results in an inquisition: Characters who hold the theology will need to choose – do they denounce it, or do they become heretics? Usually if you anathematize a theology you'll drastically reduce it in size, but you'll also have a few revolts to deal with. The Name of the Rose takes place in the aftermath of such an anathematization.
Alternately, the Pope may call a council of reconciliation. If the pope can pull it off – and depending on how reactionary the church is, this might cost a lot of piety - this would accelerate the process of absorption mentioned above.
 
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Elgato67

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This sounds pretty interesting. with regard to Intellectual Foment, would this increase revolt risk at all times, or only if the theology becomes a heresy?

Do theologies only become heresies if anathematized, or could a theology declare itself as a heresy? obviously the proponents of such a theology would not call themselves heretics, but they could declare that the establishment church is to corrupt to deal with.

You might consider adding an Ecumenical theology, that would try to mend differences between the various active theologies, and possibly between same-group religions.
 

Jorlem

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This should probably be in the suggestions forum, I think. That said, I think this could be a very fun system to play with.
 

eliaspays

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This sounds really interesting. Heresies would have to be made for interesting for this to work well though.
 

Bernard95

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Some interesting ideas, though I must admit also that could be difficult to implement. It does sort of remind me a little of what Lux Invicta did. Each religion has special classifications and modifiers like "Messianic", "Statist", "Populist", etc. Believe that was called the "Soul" of a religion and each of the 152 had something a little different. If I remember correctly, the groupings had more meaning and I'm pretty sure there was a distinction between Mainstream and Heretical branches of a religion.
 

udak

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your post is good and you should feel good. Adds a much need depth to religion of all stripes, as well as possibly giving me a reason not to raise church taxes to max.
 

nijis

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Thanks to all for the comments. Obviously I realize that this is a pretty ambitious set of suggestions. It may indeed belong in the suggestions forum, but I'll wait for an admin to move it there if that's the case.

with regard to Intellectual Foment, would this increase revolt risk at all times, or only if the theology becomes a heresy?

Do theologies only become heresies if anathematized, or could a theology declare itself as a heresy? obviously the proponents of such a theology would not call themselves heretics, but they could declare that the establishment church is to corrupt to deal with.

You might consider adding an Ecumenical theology, that would try to mend differences between the various active theologies, and possibly between same-group religions.

I was thinking that intellectual foment would increase both revolt risk and the chance of heresies. John Ball was a Lollard, for example, but he ended up leading a peasants' revolt with mainly secular grievances.

Ecumenical would indeed work as a separate theology. They would obviously favor councils over inquisitions.

I was also thinking that heresies would indeed self-declare at some point. Or they would break out like a revolt, and then adherents to a related theology would decide whether to commit to the heresy or remain in communion with the mainstream.


I was just gonna say that "Messianic" would be the one Theology that your list would be missing....

I was thinking that messianic movements would almost always become heresies very quickly. But maybe they could be found in revolts and revolt leaders - not quite ready to break with the Church, but very hostile to most individual clergymen. I can't think of any rulers who sponsored a messianic movement, or any establishment temples that adhered to one - or any benefit to doing so. But maybe some messianic NPCs loose in a province would add a bit of flavor...

If there are examples of a long-running messianic movement that did not break officially with the parent religion, and that had the blessing of an aristocrat who could be a playable character, do let me know!
 

Pyromaniac999

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i had this idea for making religious head tier titles to be dynamic as well, based on moral authority. Every 20 percent is a tier or something?

What ways can we use to make religions more dynamic while keeping things with historical reason?
 

snarf137

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This seems like a great way to flesh out religions that is both fun and immersive. I would definitely be willing to pay for something that revamped the game along these lines.
 

Il_Don

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It sounds great, and the whole system will only be partially under the player's control, which makes it even better.
I would definately pay for a nice DLC using this system.
 

Chyll

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  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
Nicely constructed idea.

At a minimum, this is a mod I would play. And I have used no mods in 90-95% of my gameplay to date.