Finnish culture to Western Finland

[Sami1oo1]

Currently the culture in provinces Österbotten and Finland are Swedish, and nation Finland doesn't have cores there like it does in eastern Finland.

This is a problem, because even though Swedes did migrate to Finland in 1200s, they were still the minority. Sure they were in higher postitions than normal Finnish peasantry, but the point of the culture in EU4 is to show what culture the peasants are, am I right?

Swedish speaking population in Finland today feel very Finnish and not Swedish, and when the national awakening in Finland came in the 1800s, it was clear that the Western part of the Finland was a part of Finland, instead of Sweden.

Åland is a whole different thing, and the Swedish culture is clearly more appropriate there than the Finnish.
I am aware that the devs' of this game are Swedish, and that is propably the reason why this kind of fault was allowed in the first place.
(Also you can remove the accept cultural shift decision, becuase like that would happen ;D)

Here is a wikipedia link to back me up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish-speaking_population_of_Finland

 

[Sleepyhead]

How is Finland ahistorical? Anjala conspiracy was a real thing. And by EU terms when Russia conquered Finland it became basicly a vassal of Russia, becouse of autonomy, own army etc.

The Anjala conspiracy was opposition to the King and about granting power to the estates. Nationalistic history writing has taken a separatist approach, for which there is little basis.
And as mentioned, the Finland that became a part of Russia used Swedish laws, Swedish constitution, Swedish courts, Swedish church, Swedish administration and a Swedish Parliament. Everything was done in Swedish. I.e. second Sweden.

 

[TheWalttu]

The Anjala conspiracy was opposition to the King and about granting power to the estates. Nationalistic history writing has taken a separatist approach, for which there is little basis.
And as mentioned, the Finland that became a part of Russia used Swedish laws, Swedish constitution, Swedish courts, Swedish church, Swedish administration and a Swedish Parliament. Everything was done in Swedish. I.e. second Sweden.

Why Russian Finland would not use old laws and governing? Thats the whole point of autonomy.

Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Finland_(1742)
Finland as an concept existed during EU4-timeline and last time i checked it´s also a tag in the game.

 

[Topias]

The issue is that the in-game existence, non-existence and distribution of these cultures is something of a jumbled mess of unclear definitions of culture and gameplay considerations. If the devs wanted to be consistent in their definitions, we could see new cultures like Slovenian and Slovakian implemented or old ones like the entire Finno-Ugric group removed. But since gameplay does factor into these decisions (often decisively so), arguments about historical facts don't really have much hope of going anywhere.

With that said, the absence of Finnish culture in Finland Proper and Österbotten combined with its presence elsewhere is an odd compromise. Unless I'm mistaken (and I might be), Finnish was the language of the majority of people in all of the in-game provinces of Österland (excluding Åland), while Swedish was the language of administration. Hence, the provinces should either all be Finnish or all be Swedish, and since the Finno-Ugric group remains in the game, to me it seems that they should be Finnish.

 

[TheWalttu]

The issue is that the in-game existence, non-existence and distribution of these cultures is something of a jumbled mess of unclear definitions of culture and gameplay considerations. If the devs wanted to be consistent in their definitions, we could see new cultures like Slovenian and Slovakian implemented or old ones like the entire Finno-Ugric group removed. But since gameplay does factor into these decisions (often decisively so), arguments about historical facts don't really have much hope of going anywhere.

With that said, the absence of Finnish culture in Finland Proper and Österbotten combined with its presence elsewhere is an odd compromise. Unless I'm mistaken (and I might be), Finnish was the language of the majority of people in all of the in-game provinces of Österland (excluding Åland), while Swedish was the language of administration. Hence, the provinces should either all be Finnish or all be Swedish, and since the Finno-Ugric group remains in the game, to me it seems that they should be Finnish.

That being said, i´ve always found the Finno-Ugric culture group to be... weird. It just seems odd to have siberians and baltic-finns in the same group, when neither was aware of the others existanse. If I was to decide, I´d split it to balto-finnic (Estonian, Finnish, Ingrian, Karelian and Sami) and Ugric (Ostyak, Uralic and Samoyed)
I understand that why Paradox hasn´t added Slovenian or Slovakian, but why don´t they just make the provinces Croatian or Czeck if new cultures are not worth adding?

 

[Topias]

That being said, i´ve always found the Finno-Ugric culture group to be... weird. It just seems odd to have siberians and baltic-finns in the same group, when neither was aware of the others existanse. If I was to decide, I´d split it to balto-finnic (Estonian, Finnish, Ingrian, Karelian and Sami) and Ugric (Ostyak, Uralic and Samoyed)
I understand that why Paradox hasn´t added Slovenian or Slovakian, but why don´t they just make the provinces Croatian or Czeck if new cultures are not worth adding?

Obviously the Finno-Ugric group, disregarding the absence of Hungarian culture, makes sense from a linguistic point of view, even if it's more historical and academic than practical. A new group for the Siberian ones would be hard to justify given the low number of provinces that aren't uncolonized, and adding them to an existing group such as Evenki on the other hand would only make less sense than their inclusion in the Finno-Ugric one.

I doubt the players who would like too see Slovenes and Slovaks in the game would consider changing the culture of the relevant provinces from a wrong culture to different, also wrong culture much of an improvement, even if the new cultures would belong to the accurate group. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the two implemented, especially given the upcoming upgrade and effective cost-reduction to culture change.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I posted another suggestion thread, asking for a system of minority cultures to be implemented in the game. No one cared to reply to that one so I don't expect that one to ever happen altough it would solve so many disputes of this kind.

I also suggested adding 2-3 more provinces in finland/lappland.

Together I think these two changes ought to pacify both people who wants to keep the swedes as well as remove them.

Discussing finno-ugric group. The whole split between finnic and ugric and then together with samoyedic making up the uralic family. which were popular before have been largely discredited. Splitting the group in two grous it could be reasoned to called finnic or balto-finnic for the western. For the eastern group Ugric would be pretty incorrect but would kinda work since the region of Yugra, which the name ugric comes from is found around the north-central slopes of the Ural Mountains.

Adding up Ugric as it's own group would make sense if the game decided to include the historical uralic states of the region,

Yugran principalities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugra...nd_relations_with_the_Tatars_and_the_Russians

The Selkup Skewbald Horde (Pegaya Orda): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skewbald_Horde

Adding these states would also add validity to another of my forum posts were I argue to work to remove all arbitary religions such as shamanism and animism. Making a unique religion for finnic and ugric peoples would have more reason then.

 

[Delta21]

I won't argue much as I'm not that good on my history for that part of the world, but I always found it funny (and weird) that the province of Finland has Swedish culture. What gives?

 

[TheDungen]

I won't argue much as I'm not that good on my history for that part of the world, but I always found it funny (and weird) that the province of Finland has Swedish culture. What gives?

Colonisation basically.
The long answer is for the same reason that the roman province of asia barely in on the continent asia.

 

[TheWalttu]

I won't argue much as I'm not that good on my history for that part of the world, but I always found it funny (and weird) that the province of Finland has Swedish culture. What gives?

Finns disguised as Fenno-Swedes playing real Swedes...or just Paradox?

 

[Delta21]

Colonisation basically.
The long answer is for the same reason that the roman province of asia barely in on the continent asia.

Now that's just ignorant Asia was a generic name for everything east of the greek world (pretty much). In my language it evolved into Asia Minor (Close-Orient/East), Asia Medium (Middle-Orient/East) and Asia Major (Far-Orient/East). The roman province was very small and no competent roman back then would have told you that the asian region consists of only the roman province of asia.

Romans did not colonize their asia - it was already settled. Colonia - "Colony" was the highest level that a non-italian roman province could attain, but do not confuse the spreading of technology, infrastructure and roman civilization in general with "colonization" - It was often the case that roman-italians, and most romans with full citizenship were the minority in pretty much every province outside of the italian peninsula.
Now my question is: Were swedes a majority(in EU4's "Finland" province) there or did they do what the romans did as a minority? (e.g.: build roads, post office, fortifications, modern buildings, temples/churches, harbors, docks and piers, schools and sanitary buildings etc.)

Finns disguised as Fenno-Swedes playing real Swedes...or just Paradox?

lol

 

[TheDungen]

Now that's just ignorant Asia was a generic name for everything east of the greek world (pretty much). In my language it evolved into Asia Minor (Close-Orient/East), Asia Medium (Middle-Orient/East) and Asia Major (Far-Orient/East). The roman province was very small and no competent roman back then would have told you that the asian region consists of only the roman province of asia.

Romans did not colonize their asia - it was already settled. Colonia - "Colony" was the highest level that a non-italian roman province could attain, but do not confuse the spreading of technology, infrastructure and roman civilization in general with "colonization" - It was often the case that roman-italians, and most romans with full citizenship were the minority in pretty much every province outside of the italian peninsula.
Now my question is: Were swedes a majority(in EU4's "Finland" province) there or did they do what the romans did as a minority? (e.g.: build roads, post office, fortifications, modern buildings, temples/churches, harbors, docks and piers, schools and sanitary buildings etc.)




lol

You misunderstand me, I meant that the name of a single province eventually became the name of the lands beyond, ok sure if that does not apply to asia then africa. Used to be the province around cathage then came to mean the entire continent.
The colonisation part is obviously not what happened in asia minor, that part was to explain the pressence of swedish culture