Finnish culture to Western Finland

[Sami1oo1]

Currently the culture in provinces Österbotten and Finland are Swedish, and nation Finland doesn't have cores there like it does in eastern Finland.

This is a problem, because even though Swedes did migrate to Finland in 1200s, they were still the minority. Sure they were in higher postitions than normal Finnish peasantry, but the point of the culture in EU4 is to show what culture the peasants are, am I right?

Swedish speaking population in Finland today feel very Finnish and not Swedish, and when the national awakening in Finland came in the 1800s, it was clear that the Western part of the Finland was a part of Finland, instead of Sweden.

Åland is a whole different thing, and the Swedish culture is clearly more appropriate there than the Finnish.
I am aware that the devs' of this game are Swedish, and that is propably the reason why this kind of fault was allowed in the first place.
(Also you can remove the accept cultural shift decision, becuase like that would happen ;D)

Here is a wikipedia link to back me up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish-speaking_population_of_Finland

 

[TheDungen]

Finland's west coast was settled by Swedes who had nowhere to start a farm. There is no evidence of a Crusade ever taking place in Finland, and the only records of a Crusade was originally first written down in the late 13th century, when there was no witnesses left to tell.

The Finns and the Tavasts never lived around the coast due to the threat of Novgorodian raiders. It was because of the Swedes first settling in today's Vasa-Åbo area that Finland became Swedish. the västgöta laws was easy for the natives to accept due to the similarity of what the native finns believed to be justice, and the Catholic church meant that finns was ` allowed ´ to lean how to read and write, and go to university.

Finland was most likely integrated peacefully into Sweden. and Finland and the south west of Österbotten is Swedish because the first to ever live there permanently was Swedes.

http://www.albertbonniersforlag.se/bocker/historia-och-arkeologi/n/nar-finland-var-sverige/

http://www.kotikielenseura.fi/virittaja/hakemistot/jutut/2002_309.pdf finnish article

The direct coastal area yes, in fact some scholar belive that there may have been north germanic tribes living there even before the finns even arrived from the north east, but the provinces in game streach far inland into area where in 1444 enough finns lived to make them all majority finnish. Also note that as I said earlier, there was no united finnish culture before the swedes came, the united finnish culture that is in the game is very much a result of being subjected to swedish rule. Karelian is the cultural representation of finns who were less affected by their relationship with sweden.

Historically it's a complicated issue since it was during the 15th century that sweden began ramping up migration to finland, along with it's effort to do the same in norrland. But since this divided population can't be represented in game I think it's more fitting for gameplay purposes to make them finnish.

 

[Mustajuttu]

The direct coastal area yes, in fact some scholar belive that there may have been protogermanic tribes living there even before the finns even arrived from the north east, but the provinces in game streach far inland into area where enough finns lived to make them all majority finnish. Also note that as I said earlier, there was no united finnish culture before the swedes came, the united finnish culture that is in the game is very much a result of being subjected to swedish rule. Karelian is the cultural representation of finns who were less affected by their relationship with sweden.

Yes indeed there may have been settler there prior to the Swedes, but those settlers left little to no evidence of ever even being there. and as you say there was no direcly finnish culture, there was Finns, Tavasts and Karelians. thise three tribes was at constant war with one another and the novgorodians who wanted to annex all of finland to secure the fur trade.

The first Swedes in Lappland was the called Birkkarlar who was to tax the Samis and make sure they didn't trade with Novgorod. A sami trading with a Novgorodian was punished with death.

The finns in the early 1100s accepted a swedish rule because it was easy to do so and it made sure they didn't need to addapt to new laws etc.

Even by 1444 it's more realistic to have Finland, Åland and Österbotten as Swedish due to the fact that culture around the late medieval era is by most affected by the religion. Not to say that all Catholic nations was the same but. As you said there was no established finnish culture, and the little culture there was by then was "Swedificated" by the church. Especially around the coastal regions of Finlnad.

proof of this is the lack of originally finnish town names even inland. around the coast there is only a few finnish names that was named by the tavasts who was allowed to use them as fishing towns during spring and summer.

 

[Woifee]

The Problem is, it's called vulture and not ruling class: Swedes.

 

[TheWalttu]

Yes indeed there may have been settler there prior to the Swedes, but those settlers left little to no evidence of ever even being there. and as you say there was no direcly finnish culture, there was Finns, Tavasts and Karelians. thise three tribes was at constant war with one another and the novgorodians who wanted to annex all of finland to secure the fur trade.

The first Swedes in Lappland was the called Birkkarlar who was to tax the Samis and make sure they didn't trade with Novgorod. A sami trading with a Novgorodian was punished with death.

The finns in the early 1100s accepted a swedish rule because it was easy to do so and it made sure they didn't need to addapt to new laws etc.

Even by 1444 it's more realistic to have Finland, Åland and Österbotten as Swedish due to the fact that culture around the late medieval era is by most affected by the religion. Not to say that all Catholic nations was the same but. As you said there was no established finnish culture, and the little culture there was by then was "Swedificated" by the church. Especially around the coastal regions of Finlnad.

proof of this is the lack of originally finnish town names even inland. around the coast there is only a few finnish names that was named by the tavasts who was allowed to use them as fishing towns during spring and summer.

It has been estimated, that in 1610 % of swedishspeakers was 17.5 of total population of Finland/Österland. Currently the 37% of total development in Finland is Swedish. That is more than third.
But west-Finland shouldn´t be considered any more swedish than rest of Finland. Nyland had also large population of Swedishspeakers, but it is Finnish in game.
All of Finland went trough a swedification of somekind, but that reflected as use of swedish as offical language and adoptation of common laws and values. Dialects used by the tribes that habitated the ingame provinces of Finland and Österbotten didn´t disappeare anywhere, they co-existed with swedish (and western-finnish dialects in general were inlfuenced by swedish language), becouse swedes settled only coastal-areas. Don´t be confused by the size of the provinces, because they are massive. Province of Finland is about the same size as the modern netherlands. And we don´t even talk about Österbotten.

But language isn´t the reason why it should be finnish.

As you know sweden had 4 traditional lands, Österland being one of them. The people of Tavastia tought that they were just as swedish as their neighbours in west, and there was not any kind indepency movements, nor common finnish identity. Having swedish culture in Finland creates some weird seperatist, when when west-Finland is considered absolutely swedish and defects to sweden, while rest suddenly decides that they get a completely new state. So Finland, when revolting actually gets torn apart. Also releasing Finland creates something absolutely ahistorical, when demanded in peace.

 

[Sleepyhead]

As you know sweden had 4 traditional lands, Österland being one of them. The people of Tavastia tought that they were just as swedish as their neighbours in west, and there was not any kind indepency movements, nor common finnish identity. Having swedish culture in Finland creates some weird seperatist, when when west-Finland is considered absolutely swedish and defects to sweden, while rest suddenly decides that they get a completely new state. So Finland, when revolting actually gets torn apart. Also releasing Finland creates something absolutely ahistorical, when demanded in peace.

Sweden was a union of two lands, sure, but 'Österland' was completely out of use by the start of this game and don't get me started on the retardation of Norrland (barely even uttered at the start of the game). Both of these are names based on mere cardinal directions (things to the east, things to the north), not culture or tribes. The four traditional land speak is a very late construction.

Also, when Finland as an entity separated from Sweden emerged under Russia, it used Swedish laws, had a Swedish parliament, a Swedish church and a Swedish administration. The language used was Swedish. It got Finnish only as a part of a movement in an attempt to build something that was not Swedish (hence the flight to Carelia and the abandonment of West Finland as centre).

 

[TheDungen]

Sweden was a union of two lands, sure, but 'Österland' was completely out of use by the start of this game and don't get me started on the retardation of Norrland (barely even uttered at the start of the game). Both of these are names based on mere cardinal directions (things to the east, things to the north), not culture or tribes. The four traditional land speak is a very late construction.

Also, when Finland as an entity separated from Sweden emerged under Russia, it used Swedish laws, had a Swedish parliament, a Swedish church and a Swedish administration. The language used was Swedish. It got Finnish only as a part of a movement in an attempt to build something that was not Swedish (hence the flight to Carelia and the abandonment of West Finland as centre).

But that's the finnish culture that's in the game, the one that is already affected by the relationship with sweden. The culture that causes that state to emerge is finnish. Finnish is pretty much a melting pot culture between swedish and karelian (old finnish).

 

[TheWalttu]

But that's the finnish culture that's in the game, the one that is already affected by the relationship with sweden. The culture that causes that state to emerge is finnish. Finnish is pretty much a melting pot culture between swedish and karelian (old finnish).

I recall Wiz saying that difference between Finnish and Karelian cultures is the owner of the provinces. Even tough Karelian culture isn't same as old finnish, you got the right point. Half of the finnish names ingame are swedish. Finnish culture is hard to simulate in EU, because it's releated to both swedish and karelian.

 

[TheDungen]

I recall Wiz saying that difference between Finnish and Karelian cultures is the owner of the provinces. Even tough Karelian culture isn't same as old finnish, you got the right point. Half of the finnish names ingame are swedish. Finnish culture is hard to simulate in EU, because it's releated to both swedish and karelian.

Well that's the thing I guess finnish culture changed a lot over this time period, in 1444 it should basically be old finnish, which would be very close to (you are correct not really the same as) karelian while in 1821 it should have been heavily influenced by it's time under swedish rule.

To proper simulate the situation in finnland they should need either or both of full province cultural breakdowns and dynamic culure.

 

[Slargos]

Uhu so you don't want to give any sources but claim that these provinces had a swedish majority population in 1444. You're trolling aren't you?

I have delved into this topic at length before. THere's a search function available. I don't feel like doing your research for you today.

 

[TheDungen]

I have delved into this topic at length before. THere's a search function available. I don't feel like doing your research for you today.

I'm sorry but then I'll have to disregard your comment, you can't just say "There's plenty of sources do your own research" after making a claim. You either back it up with something tangiable like several people on both sides of the argument in the thread has actually done or you'll have to accept that people will ignore your posts.

 

[Slargos]

I'm sorry but then I'll have to disregard your comment, you can't just say "There's plenty of sources do your own research" after making a claim. You either back it up with something tangiable like several people on both sides of the argument in the thread has actually done or you'll have to accept that people will ignore your posts.

However will I go on with my day.

 

[Sleepyhead]

But that's the finnish culture that's in the game, the one that is already affected by the relationship with sweden. The culture that causes that state to emerge is finnish. Finnish is pretty much a melting pot culture between swedish and karelian (old finnish).

Which point are you making again?

 

[TheDungen]

Which point are you making again?

That they failing better cultural mechanics being implemented should be finnish since that actually takes the swedish traits in finnish into account too.

 

[Sleepyhead]

That they failing better cultural mechanics being implemented should be finnish since that actually takes the swedish traits in finnish into account too.

They can just turn all provinces Swedish then and/or remove the ahistorical Finnish state.

 

[TheDungen]

They can just turn all provinces Swedish then and/or remove the ahistorical Finnish state.

That we cannot, because while finnish implies the inclusion of some swedish elements, swedish does not imply any finnish elements.

 

[Sleepyhead]

That we cannot, because while finnish implies the inclusion of some swedish elements, swedish does not imply any finnish elements.

Again, what are you arguing? This is just nonsensical ramblings.
If you want an ahistorical Finnish rebel state it makes sense in having it in the area which was incorporated more than being an integral and original part of the kingdom, like Western Finland. As mentioned this area is for much of the part of it more Swedish than areas like Värmland.

 

[TheDungen]

Again, what are you arguing? This is just nonsensical ramblings.
If you want an ahistorical Finnish rebel state it makes sense in having it in the area which was incorporated more than being an integral and original part of the kingdom, like Western Finland. As mentioned this area is for much of the part of it more Swedish than areas like Värmland.

That's true for a tiny sliver around the coast of each province not for the entire province.

 

[Sleepyhead]

That's true for a tiny sliver around the coast of each province not for the entire province.

What do you base this on? The coast is the most important part and the province of Finland proper was a constituent part of Sweden. As for connections, water was a unifier, not a separator. The ties between Svealand and Finland proper go back hundred of years to boot.

 

[TheDungen]

What do you base this on? The coast is the most important part and the province of Finland proper was a constituent part of Sweden. As for connections, water was a unifier, not a separator. The ties between Svealand and Finland proper go back hundred of years to boot.

Hence why the coast had swedish speaking settlements while the inland very quickly became finnish.

 

[TheWalttu]

They can just turn all provinces Swedish then and/or remove the ahistorical Finnish state.

How is Finland ahistorical? Anjala conspiracy was a real thing. And by EU terms when Russia conquered Finland it became basicly a vassal of Russia, becouse of autonomy, own army etc.