Finnish culture to Western Finland

[Sami1oo1]

Currently the culture in provinces Österbotten and Finland are Swedish, and nation Finland doesn't have cores there like it does in eastern Finland.

This is a problem, because even though Swedes did migrate to Finland in 1200s, they were still the minority. Sure they were in higher postitions than normal Finnish peasantry, but the point of the culture in EU4 is to show what culture the peasants are, am I right?

Swedish speaking population in Finland today feel very Finnish and not Swedish, and when the national awakening in Finland came in the 1800s, it was clear that the Western part of the Finland was a part of Finland, instead of Sweden.

Åland is a whole different thing, and the Swedish culture is clearly more appropriate there than the Finnish.
I am aware that the devs' of this game are Swedish, and that is propably the reason why this kind of fault was allowed in the first place.
(Also you can remove the accept cultural shift decision, becuase like that would happen ;D)

Here is a wikipedia link to back me up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish-speaking_population_of_Finland

 

[Emperor Hadrian]

The peasantry being a majority in the province but the actual culture being of the ones who rule them like you have finnish with swedish is the same problem as in Transylvania (hunagrian but actually romanian) , Slovenian part of Austria(austrian but actually slovenian) and Slovakian part of Hungary(hungarian but actually slovakian) . This has been going on for some time, don't bother, it won't be changed...

 

[TheDungen]

It's a complicated situation, at the very least finland ought to have cores of the swedish parts of finnland, but without the culture those cores won't last very long anyway.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Swedes made up majorities in several coastal areas and cities. And back in these days I don't think the fenno-swedes would consider themselves finnish like they do today.

But like I posted in a more recent thread on the same issue, the current division is way to unbalanced. I therefore suggested splitting upp finland and northern fennoscandia in about three more provinces.

Giving Finland cores to Österbotten and Åbo is however good ideas.

 

[TheDungen]

Swedes made up majorities in several coastal areas and cities. And back in these days I don't think the fenno-swedes would consider themselves finnish like they do today.

But like I posted in a more recent thread on the same issue, the current division is way to unbalanced. I therefore suggested splitting upp finland and northern fennoscandia in about three more provinces.

Giving Finland cores to Österbotten and Åbo is however good ideas.

The fennoswedes were quite few in 1444 I mean a north germanic pressence has existed on the shores of the batlic and finnland since late iron age but not enough to be majority in the areas that are swedish in 1444. Add to that that the finnish in game is already swedified with plenty of names of swedish origin and so on and it becomes even worse.

 

[Franz Limit]

Yeah since there are so many finnish provinces in the game I never understood why they implemented it (together with sami) at all. Don't get my wrong, nothing against those cultures but the reason why there is no slovenian or slovakian for example is because Austria/Bohemia would culture convert those provinces anyway. So why do we even have finnish in the game if they just gave that few provionces? I am not exactly an expert in scandinavian history but if this region was mostly populated by finnish people it should be finnish. (They would need to make most of the Baltic Prussian too if the majority of the population in a province doesn't count but just the ruling culture)

 

[rhaptorne]

Yeah since there are so many finnish provinces in the game I never understood why they implemented it (together with sami) at all. Don't get my wrong, nothing against those cultures but the reason why there is no slovenian or slovakian for example is because Austria/Bohemia would culture convert those provinces anyway. So why do we even have finnish in the game if they just gave that few provionces? I am not exactly an expert in scandinavian history but if this region was mostly populated by finnish people it should be finnish. (They would need to make most of the Baltic Prussian too if the majority of the population in a province doesn't count but just the ruling culture)

The thing is, the sami people have a nation called sapmi in the game, it can only spawn via rebels tho.

 

[Slargos]

 

[TheDungen]

Would you care to elaborate?

 

[Sleepyhead]

Western Finland was part of Sweden at the latter's inception, the area was more Swedish than say Hälsingland.

It's actually sort of telling how Finnish nationalists completely ignored Western Finland, its culture, language, history, symbolism, food, landscape, etc. when the Finnish nation was constructed. Western Finland was more or less indistinguishable from Sweden, so nationalists went to forested Carelia in the east to use as basis of the nation instead.

 

[Itchel]

The peasantry being a majority in the province but the actual culture being of the ones who rule them like you have finnish with swedish is the same problem as in Transylvania (hunagrian but actually romanian) , Slovenian part of Austria(austrian but actually slovenian) and Slovakian part of Hungary(hungarian but actually slovakian) . This has been going on for some time, don't bother, it won't be changed...

Oh yeah, just like dublin is irish,wales is welsh, Greece is greek and Karelia is karelian

 

[TheDungen]

Western Finland was part of Sweden at the latter's inception, the area was more Swedish than say Hälsingland.

It's actually sort of telling how Finnish nationalists completely ignored Western Finland, its culture, language, history, symbolism, food, landscape, etc. when the Finnish nation was constructed. Western Finland was more or less indistinguishable from Sweden, so nationalists went to forested Carelia in the east to use as basis of the nation instead.

No it wasn't the crusades agaisnt finnland began at earliest in 1150 (and even that crusade may be mythical, in whoch case the first crusade agaisnt finnland was almost a centry later) while sweden was formed by olof skötkonung who lived a full century before the first crusade against finnland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Swedish_Crusade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Skötkonung

And as I said whilst there had lived north germanic people along the finnish coast since late iron age they were not majority in any of the provinces that exist in game in 1444. In order to get a s swedish majority province you'd have to cut out an extremely thin sliver right at the coast. Sure in 1821 there may be substantial swedish population in finnland but not in 1444.

I'm swedish myself (hence why the crest of blekinge is my profile pic) and this still bothers me.

 

[TheWalttu]

There are a number of reasons why west Finland should be finnish:

1. Easier acceptance of Finnish culture. Anyone who has played Sweden without humanist ideas knows that it is hard without overdeveloping Finland.

2. Random Sweden popping in Finland. Because Sweden is primary nation of Swedish, Finland and Österbotten are considered to be eternal cores of Sweden.

3. Swedish wasn´t majority language there. Most of Österbotten and Finland is inland, where swedish language never even took root.

4. In 1444 concept of Finland was more or less the "Österland", or east-Sweden, and anyone living there was considered to be Österlander. Åland should be as it is now tough.

5. If culture/language of elite is used to determine provinces culture, there shouldn´t be any finnish provinces at all. Nor estonian or latvian.

6. For reasons.

How does west Finland being swedish benefit the game? Balance should be argument strong enough to make it finnish.

Edit: to be clear with point 3, swedish language never achieved majority in inland areas.

 

[TheDungen]

There are a number of reasons why west Finland should be finnish:

1. Easier acceptance of Finnish culture. Anyone who has played Sweden without humanist ideas knows that it is hard without overdeveloping Finland.

2. Random Sweden popping in Finland. Because Sweden is primary nation of Swedish, Finland and Österbotten are considered to be eternal cores of Sweden.

3. Swedish wasn´t majority language there. Most of Österbotten and Finland is inland, where swedish language never even took root.

4. In 1444 concept of Finland was more or less the "Österland", or east-Sweden, and anyone living there was considered to be Österlander. Åland should be as it is now tough.

5. If culture/language of elite is used to determine provinces culture, there shouldn´t be any finnish provinces at all. Nor estonian or latvian.

6. For reasons.

How does west Finland being swedish benefit the game? Balance should be argument strong enough to make it finnish.

Well actually making them finnish would be a buff to sweden, seeing as it would make finnish almost always an accepted culture. And sweden is kind of OP as things are.

That said I think the reaons to have them finnish outweigh the reasons to not.

As for point 3, I wouldn't say never, round the time sweden lost finnland the swedish speakers were probably majority in some of the provinces, but not in 1444.

 

[SignedName]

Finnish at the very least should be considered the "original" culture of those areas, so culture converting them shouldn't be as hard and so they get Finnish cores.

 

[Sleepyhead]

No it wasn't the crusades agaisnt finnland began at earliest in 1150 (and even that crusade may be mythical, in whoch case the first crusade agaisnt finnland was almost a centry later) while sweden was formed by olof skötkonung who lived a full century before the first crusade against finnland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Swedish_Crusade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Skötkonung

And as I said whilst there had lived north germanic people along the finnish coast since late iron age they were not majority in any of the provinces that exist in game in 1444. In order to get a s swedish majority province you'd have to cut out an extremely thin sliver right at the coast. Sure in 1821 there may be substantial swedish population in finnland but not in 1444.

I'm swedish myself (hence why the crest of blekinge is my profile pic) and this still bothers me.

My point is that Finns went from hunter-gatherers, herders and early farmers to becoming Swedish subjects, very much like how Swedes in Sweden proper became Swedish subjects. There were basically no operational Finnish churches, courts, assemblies or other developed institutions when that happened. No urban centres from early times have been found and there is no evidence of early state formation. The entire nobility that emerged was as Swedish as the ones in Sweden, everyone in the area of Western Finland which was an original part of the Swedish state were for all intends and purposes Swedes, who spoke either Finnish, Swedish or German as native tongue, which the state cared very little about. This is similar to how Swedish-speaking Finns today are - indeed - Finns and thus culturally Finnish, though they have Swedish as mother tongue (or come from a bilingual family). The mythological crusades you mention were military expeditions (dubbed crusades hundred of years later) of the Swedish kingdom expanding its borders into unclaimed "pagan" territory, where very few lived. I.e. the same process Sweden and Norway had when expanding northwards. Sweden had an easier time ruling its subjects in today's Finland than it did ruling its subjects in Dalarna or Småland, not to mention conquered territories such as Skåne, your Blekinge or Jämtland. The population in the latter province were the last to be considered as Swedish subjects and that was as late as by the dawn of the 18th century.

It's important to remember that Sweden is the original state and political entity of all of today's Finland, the inhabitants became Swedish subjects in exactly the same way as the people of Sweden proper. Western Finland was part of Sweden just like Svealand proper when Sweden formed, and the rest of Finland was integrated in the same was as e.g. Västerbotten or Hälsingland was, making Finland more Swedish than e.g. Värmland, as this area had substantial Norwegian influence. Having Western Finland as culturally Swedish is thus fully motivated.

Still, I think the mistake lots of people make is to associate language with culture. The culture setup of the Nordics is clearly not based on linguistics. There was no difference between Sweden and Denmark in 1444, the people spoke Old (East) Norse, not Swedish or Danish. The culture setup in EUIV for the Nordics is clearly based on states, not tongue.

 

[TheDungen]

My point is that Finns went from hunter-gatherers, herders and early farmers to becoming Swedish subjects, very much like how Swedes in Sweden proper became Swedish subjects. There were basically no operational Finnish churches, courts, assemblies or other developed institutions when that happened. No urban centres from early times have been found and there is no evidence of early state formation. The entire nobility that emerged was as Swedish as the ones in Sweden, everyone in the area of Western Finland which was an original part of the Swedish state were for all intends and purposes Swedes, who spoke either Finnish, Swedish or German as native tongue, which the state cared very little about. This is similar to how Swedish-speaking Finns today are - indeed - Finns and thus culturally Finnish, though they have Swedish as mother tongue (or come from a bilingual family). The mythological crusades you mention were military expeditions (dubbed crusades hundred of years later) of the Swedish kingdom expanding its borders into unclaimed "pagan" territory, where very few lived. I.e. the same process Sweden and Norway had when expanding northwards. Sweden had an easier time ruling its subjects in today's Finland than it did ruling its subjects in Dalarna or Småland, not to mention conquered territories such as Skåne, your Blekinge or Jämtland. The population in the latter province were the last to be considered as Swedish subjects and that was as late as by the dawn of the 18th century.

It's important to remember that Sweden is the original state and political entity of all of today's Finland, the inhabitants became Swedish subjects in exactly the same way as the people of Sweden proper. Western Finland was part of Sweden just like Svealand proper when Sweden formed, and the rest of Finland was integrated in the same was as e.g. Västerbotten or Hälsingland was, making Finland more Swedish than e.g. Värmland, as this area had substantial Norwegian influence. Having Western Finland as culturally Swedish is thus fully motivated.

Still, I think the mistake lots of people make is to associate language with culture. The culture setup of the Nordics is clearly not based on linguistics. There was no difference between Sweden and Denmark in 1444, the people spoke Old (East) Norse, not Swedish or Danish. The culture setup in EUIV for the Nordics is clearly based on states, not tongue.

And the finnish culture reflects this with a load of germanic names in it and finlands ideas have things originating with sweden such as the fourth estate. And in 1444 sweden had aside from language much more in common culturally with prussia and the balt states than with denmark. A good indicator is usually food culture, no one borthers beign imperialistic and trying to change that, unlike language. Denmark has a very west european food culture while swedens is much closer to eastern europe.

 

[Slargos]

Would you care to elaborate?

Not really. But I will do so in a limited fashion anyway, because I am a giving person.

Anyone who knows anything about anything knows that Finland province should quite definitely be culturally Swedish. I won't do the leg work for you. It's so.

There's one single acceptable argument for making it Finnish: Game balance. If Finland-province is not culturally Finnish, the culture is much quicker to be removed from accepted status for Sweden, and the Finnish culture is overall weakened which may have secondary and tertiary effects.

Game balance is a very strong argument in and of itself, so all the time wasted on trying to ret-con history to fit Finnish-Finland arguments is completely wasted time.

I don't think it's strong enough, hence the video.

 

[TheDungen]

Not really. But I will do so in a limited fashion anyway, because I am a giving person.

Anyone who knows anything about anything knows that Finland province should quite definitely be culturally Swedish. I won't do the leg work for you. It's so.

There's one single acceptable argument for making it Finnish: Game balance. If Finland-province is not culturally Finnish, the culture is much quicker to be removed from accepted status for Sweden, and the Finnish culture is overall weakened which may have secondary and tertiary effects.

Game balance is a very strong argument in and of itself, so all the time wasted on trying to ret-con history to fit Finnish-Finland arguments is completely wasted time.

I don't think it's strong enough, hence the video.

Uhu so you don't want to give any sources but claim that these provinces had a swedish majority population in 1444. You're trolling aren't you?

 

[Mustajuttu]

No it wasn't the crusades agaisnt finnland began at earliest in 1150 (and even that crusade may be mythical, in whoch case the first crusade agaisnt finnland was almost a centry later) while sweden was formed by olof skötkonung who lived a full century before the first crusade against finnland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Swedish_Crusade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Skötkonung

And as I said whilst there had lived north germanic people along the finnish coast since late iron age they were not majority in any of the provinces that exist in game in 1444. In order to get a s swedish majority province you'd have to cut out an extremely thin sliver right at the coast. Sure in 1821 there may be substantial swedish population in finnland but not in 1444.

I'm swedish myself (hence why the crest of blekinge is my profile pic) and this still bothers me.

Finland's west coast was settled by Swedes who had nowhere to start a farm. There is no evidence of a Crusade ever taking place in Finland, and the only records of a Crusade was originally first written down in the late 13th century, when there was no witnesses left to tell.

The Finns and the Tavasts never lived around the coast due to the threat of Novgorodian raiders. It was because of the Swedes first settling in today's Vasa-Åbo area that Finland became Swedish. the västgöta laws was easy for the natives to accept due to the similarity of what the native finns believed to be justice, and the Catholic church meant that finns was ` allowed ´ to lean how to read and write, and go to university.

Finland was most likely integrated peacefully into Sweden. and Finland and the south west of Österbotten is Swedish because the first to ever live there permanently was Swedes.

Forgot to mention that the Swedish emigration to Finland was as a result of very good harvests which increased the population of the Swedish mainland around the year 1100

http://www.albertbonniersforlag.se/bocker/historia-och-arkeologi/n/nar-finland-var-sverige/

http://www.kotikielenseura.fi/virittaja/hakemistot/jutut/2002_309.pdf finnish article