Finland Winter War Advice

[IronMurg]

Hello,

I am a definite newbie, just started playing a few weeks ago.

I am playing as Finland, trying to win the Winter War, or at the very least survive it!

I've got all expansions, playing normal difficulty, 1936 start date.

My goal is not to surrender or give up any territory, and NOT to join any faction (stay neutral).

The problem is, once the war starts I immediately run into manpower problems. I'm using service by requirement, my agriculture is up to date, I even annexed some of my neighbors, but I'm still at 0 manpower almost all the time!

As more and more Soviet divisions show up on the front lines, and as I lack the manpower to field even a single new division, I'm hard pressed just to defend my borders, let alone take the fight to the Reds!

Since capturing victory points is quite impossible for me, should I be focusing on attacking the Soviet National Unity instead? It's 1940 right now, is that enough time?

What's the best way to hit their national unity? I already sent a bunch of spies on counterespionage to keep them from raising it any further, though my spies are taking such heavy losses even with everything put into counterespionage I can't even really consider the "lower national unity" option.

I could license build some pretty nice heavy bombers from the Americans, but the high manpower/IC cost means I wouldn't be able to build more than 1-2 per year.

Rockets would be very good for me considering their low manpower cost, but I have done no rocket research and it's already 1940, is it too late to invest in that? What should I target for maximum NU damage? Moscow is probably out of rocket range, and might be within bomber range but not within range of my fighter aircraft. The Germans hate me so I can't license build rockets from them.

Submarine warfare is out since the Soviets can't send any convoys through the Baltic Sea anyways.

Nuke research is probably too much for my pitiful leadership and ICs to handle.

Other options? Paratroopers to grab Moscow? Wait for the Germans to show up (assuming they show up on time and assuming they don't attack me while they're in the neighborhood?)

Has anyone actually won the Winter War without joining the Axis? If so, how did you do it? Any advice would be helpful!

 

[Opanashc]

At your current level, you cannot win - SU dwarfs you in every aspect. They have many times more manpower, units, resources, LS. To have a chance, go on a conquest spree. Conquer countries, until you are in the league with the Soviets.

 

[Mini$mith]

The only thing you have in your favour is very good terrain, with forrests and rivers, and many chokepoints due to very poor infrastructure. Taking a look at all the mapmodes - infrastructure and terrain especially - will give you a decent ideas as to where you should make your stand. With some good planning, and by adding artillery to your already excisting infantry, you should be able to hold the line until the germans attack SU. Then, SU will shift most of their forces south, and you can go on the offensive, seizing the northern provinces, and maybe even pushing as far as into Leningrad and Archangelsk. By that time, in the one game i did as Finland, the Soviets actually asked for peace (of course, this will only happen as long as you are not a part of the Axis!) and I could sit back and enjoy my grabbed lands with added IC and build up manpower. Which was good, because the next year the Soviets pushed the germans back out again, but leaving me with North-West Russia due to the peace.

 

[IronMurg]

The only thing you have in your favour is very good terrain, with forrests and rivers, and many chokepoints due to very poor infrastructure.

Thank you for the advice.

Right now my army composition is:
13 "offensive" INF divisions (INFx3)
10 "defensive" INF divisions (INFx2, ARTx1, ATx1)
1 CAV division (anti-partisan duty)

While my offensive divisions were useful during my conquest of Norway and Sweden, they are not performing as well against the Soviets. My defensive divisions have a 10% combined arms bonus and can pierce the armor of the Soviet tanks, my offensive divisions have 0% combined arms and can't pierce Soviet tank armor. So basically my defense divisions are accomplishing more with less manpower.

I inherited those 13 INFx3 divisions from my 1936 start. In retrospect maybe I should have broken some or all of them up into the "defense" configuration. Or maybe taken it even a step further?

INFx1, ARTx1, ATx1, and ENGx1 would get 15% combined arms, take up very little manpower, and be useful for defending the forts I intend to build on those chokepoints. It wouldn't sync well with my focus on infantry doctrines though...

And in any case it's too late to change my army composition now, though if this game fails I can always try again...

Argh, so many choices! Hopefully the Germans show up soon (I gave them military access).

 

[szcott69]

One thing I find really helpful, esp in Finland, is to use the Battlemap editor and draw thick lines inside the impassible zones, makes it much easier to see where the choke points are.

 

[gunstickuncle]

Or just use infra mapmode

Defending Finland on normal is possible if you use CGM. But as already stated by others, that's still basically all you can do for quite some time.
Also keeping USSR on war laws for 20 extra months (instead of ~2) before Germany attacks them might end badly for Germany.

 

[21oliver]

Its one of those situations your damned if you do, damned if you dont. There isnt much you can do. You simply dont have the manpower to do much.

 

[motrek2]

I recently played a GC as Finland (small improvement mod), just making survival my goal
and trying to stay out of factions.

I built up my inf. tech and the doctrine that improves organization. I built a few divisions,
brigading them with Art, AT, and AA built through licensing (mostly from UK) as they
represent a higher tech level than what I could produce on my own. Ignoring armor or planes,
I also made a couple of Mtn and Cav. for use up north. I also
augmented some forts in the south.

When the Winter War came, I was able to stall the Red flood and then counter-attack
and gain some of my cores northeast of the Mannerheim Line. Suprisingly, when I sued for
peace, they accepted, granting me the conquered cores.

I continued research, built another corps of infantry and some garrisons for my ports.
Also, I think, some subs and destroyers

Come Barbarossa, I continued my war with the Soviets, but did not join the axis,
despite constant wooing from Germany.
I was able to gain even more cores and again sued for peace, gaining the cores.

After a protracted see-saw war between Germany and USSR, the Reds began to collapse--
the Japanese had breached the Urals.

Tempted to join axis, I declared war on USSR once again, only to be beaten into
Leningrad by Germany. I quit the game at that point (Sept. 1945).

 

[21oliver]

Leningrad would have been a tremendous grab!

 

[Pacius Ferox]

I have noticed that if you put Hugo Österman into the Chief of Staff position right in the beginning, he will with the agricultural advances give a great deal of manpower for use in 1939.

Defending Finland on normal is possible if you use CGM.

Carl Gustav Mannerheim?

 

[21oliver]

I tried a game and had everything going for me on the Axis side, i captured Leningrad but eventually the Soviets broke through elsewhere. Manpower is too low to do much. I had 25 INFx3 on the border, and a single INFx3 in each port. I was starting to add PL Art but it was already war.

 

[Pacius Ferox]

I have actually defended against CCCP up to the Barbarossa, but even if you take Leningrad, Murmansk and the Japanese take Vladivostok, it doesn't guarantee that the Germans will take anything beyond Belarus. Count on it that they will fail...

In the technology screen, make sure your infantry division is better than theirs. It will be your only higher hand.

Yet Qualitas potentia nostra, is the Finnish Air Force nothing like it was historically, you may just forget using it. But if you have light bombers, an airfield at Oulu is often capable of bombing the Soviets without their fighters interfering.

Stay neutral, and join the Allies once they find their pants. (Or you may trigger war between the Allies and CCCP if you join them only when the 'Border Negotiations' screen comes -teehee.)

The hardest thing to defend is the northern side of Ladoga, I usually stay behind the border provinces and push their reconnoitering units back, they won't often come en massé that way. Generally, counter-attack their hapless units, but don't remain defending in hopeless situations.

The Isthmus at south can hold much longer since the Soviets will hardly try the historic way. At the Petsamo front they will have a hard time gathering supplies way up north, you will lose Petsamo but they won't advance further due to their lack of supplies.

Relegate Siilasvuo into post of a division commander. After some showing-up you will have him at level 6 or so. He is the best Finnish commander. Once the Barbarossa has started, take Sorokka and watch them trying to open a path for supplies for troops at north (is fun). Other good commanders that start with low rating but will increase fast are Lagus and Pajari. Then are Autti, Laatikainen, and K.A. Heiskanen also fairly good (Oesch, Airo, Raappana, Vihma and Wallenius are much worse than historically). Surprisingly, are the old Czarist officers Wetzer and Ignatius quite good, only old-school). Blick, Martola, Talvela are quite good too. Airforce has not a one a-good

Don't take the Kola peninsula, there will be no chance to supply your forces there. Also set the reporting settings to show up when you are being bombed, otherwise you will hear some day that your navy's been lost without your noticing it.

And finally, the general cynicism: knowing the history will actually make the game only more difficult.

 

[IronMurg]

Defending Finland on normal is possible if you use CGM. But as already stated by others, that's still basically all you can do for quite some time.
Also keeping USSR on war laws for 20 extra months (instead of ~2) before Germany attacks them might end badly for Germany.

Oh man I didn't even consider that! I was thinking of trying to defend for the whole game after 1939, but now I realize that's probably not possible or even desirable.

I recently played a GC as Finland (small improvement mod), just making survival my goal
and trying to stay out of factions.

When the Winter War came, I was able to stall the Red flood and then counter-attack
and gain some of my cores northeast of the Mannerheim Line. Suprisingly, when I sued for
peace, they accepted, granting me the conquered cores.

Zomg!!!! I didn't even realize Finland HAD cores on the SU! Wow, that changes a lot. This thread has been really helpful for showing me things I hadn't considered.

I have been using Hugo Ostermann to help with the manpower. I've been using Mannerheim (level 4) as an army group commander, but putting his HQ on the front lines so he sees combat. The available manpower/officers/ICs for Finland is so horribly low that I disbanded all the other HQs. Leaving only the theatre HQ and one army group HQ. Good idea?

About research...how is the penalty for researching ahead calculated? Up til now I've been waiting for January 1st before starting that year's research, but sometimes it seems you can research a tech before that without the penalty notification showing up?

When license building planes, are they stuck at that tech level? This last game I license built some INTs, but then I got really lucky with spying and stole the basic single engine aircraft techs from Sweden. Although I had intended to just ignore aircraft tech due to Finland's low leadership, after the spying success I considering researching it. But there would be no point if my license built planes wouldn't upgrade.

My last Finland game failed because my stupid intel told me one Soviet division was guarding a province, when it turned out to be five. Although I immediately called off the attack, the damage was already done (no more 20% dig in bonus!) and my defenders got routed in the Soviet counterattack.

Back to the drawing board! But this time with a lot more ideas to work with. Thanks again for the help!

 

[IronMurg]

So my restarted game is turning out really weird. I think it has to do with the Spanish Civil War. Usually I get the message the war has started, and then after a few months it's over.

This time the war didn't end, it was just a long stalemate! I have no mods installed. I am playing with all expansions.

Since I was ignoring the progress of the war my first clue something was wrong was when I got a message in early 1939 that BRITAIN was intervening in the Spanish Civil War! Normally I see Germany, Italy, and SU intervene, but I've never seen Britain do it, and so late! And I checked, and sure enough the Nationalists had surrounded the Republican capitol, but the Nationalist capitol was also being directly threatened. Then Germany declared war on Czechloslovakia rather than annexing it, shortly thereafter Britain declared war on Germany and the rest of the Allies followed suit (this is like Feb 1939, Poland hasn't even been invaded yet!).

Then Germany declares war on pretty much everybody in Europe who's still neutral (not me though), and my neutrality drops to almost nothing within a few days! Normally I have to wait until the Russians declare war on me before I can declare war on anyone.

Poland is annexed with no molotov-ribbentropp pact, France conquers Ethiopia, it's just an ahistorical mess! I haven't gotten to the Winter War yet (I'm not sure it will even fire at this point) and I'm wondering if I should continue or restart. Has this happened to anyone else? I don't want to put several more hours into this game only to find out it's borked and I should have restarted...

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

There is a 10% chance that the Czechs will refuse to be annexed by Germany triggering an early war, according to your description it is what happened in your game. Btw if the SCW last until 1939 the UK will intervene for some reason, I have seen it several times and it is not related with the early WWII start.

 

[motrek2]

Oh, just sit back , watch and enjoy. Just be sure to keep your powder dry-- that is, don't do anything rash.
Since there was no M/R pact there probably won't be a Winter War.

I'd kiss up to the Allies, with an eye to eventually join. It looks like Germany may have already taken on too much.

Play on a fast speed and be patient. Things could get interesting down the road.

 

[Opanashc]

There is a 10% chance that the Czechs will refuse to be annexed by Germany triggering an early war, according to your description it is what happened in your game. Btw if the SCW last until 1939 the UK will intervene for some reason, I have seen it several times and it is not related with the early WWII start.

UK and France can intervene, once their ruling Party's organization and popularity is >=50.
Winter war happens after November 1939, when Germany controls Warsaw, and Finland is not allied with Germany.

 

[21oliver]

Get into a faction prior to Nov 1939 and you can avoid the winter war. Buys you a few more years anyway.

 

[IronMurg]

I restarted, not because of the ahistorical issues, but because I wasn't happy with my army composition. I decided to add engineers to my army at the expense of some INF brigades and it worked out really well.

This game the Soviets declared war on me as usual, but I was able to annex Norway, Sweden, and Estonia. When things started going downhill I made peace with the Soviets without ceding any territory. Then I went on to annex Latvia, Lithuania, Portugal and Spain.

This is the best I've ever done, and I was pretty excited since it was 1941 and I knew Barbarossa couldn't be far off. That was when I'd take my revenge on the Soviets!

Then, out of the blue, Germany declares war on me! So I go try try to negotiate peace only to get the message, "You are both in factions, and factions fight until they surrender."

"I ain't in no faction!" I said. But sure enough, I looked and I WAS! I was apparently forced to join the Allies when Germany declared war on me! Argh!!! This is seriously going to mess up my whole "stay neutral" goal.

Is this normal? Is there any way to be excommunicated from the Allies or something? Help!

 

[motrek2]

But you didn't stay neutral-- you went on a conquest rampage!
And once in a faction, you cannot sue for peace.

In my game, I only messed with the Soviets, all the while looking to join the faction that appeared to ultimately win.
Frankly, I had hoped that the Soviets would beat Germany and I would join the Allies late.
I would then help liberate Norway and have the added protection of the Allies.

However, the Japanese had other ideas as they precipitated the Soviet collapse.
I quit as Germany beat me into Leningrad.