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Definitely unusual, but I don't know if you could safely say "unique" :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorke's_Drift

I believe unique would still fit.
Those are two entirely different battles, entirely different tactics were used.
And there's the fact alot of the British Servicemen lived when it was over...

If anything, Rorke's Drift is even more unique in that respect.

They did a movie of that IIRC... VG movie too BTW. Zulu I think it was called.

T
 

George LeS

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Yeah, Zulu's pretty good. Was my #1 favorite, until I saw Rules of the Game.

Glad to get this reopened. I think there's pretty much a consensus that the failure to scale results to size is a major flaw. There should just be a limit to how many can be wiped out per regiment.

I think it's more contention on the question of wipeouts, generally. I, for one, think them way too excessive. The game was already flawed in that armies march too continuously. This has been true since EUI. There is no going into winter quarters, no need for R&R after a victory. I've said it before, but it is clear that most battles were not Cannae.

And then there's the navy. Yes, it is my hobby-horse, & I know many must be sick of me. But. There is a simple fact which P'dox has not taken into account, which is that the basic units are not comparable, between land & sea.

A regiment is a collection of men. It can disintegrate, theoretically, without a single one of them being killed or wounded. Or it can fight one despite losses. During combat, it's strength will often decline for causes like disruption which can be recovered later. Unlike ships, men captured where not, generally, useful to their captors (although guns were).

Ships are a bit different. Ships don't disperse in the same sense. A fleet will, but each ship remains a unit until she sinks. And sinkage wasn't that common in the EUIII era. If you look at the period, the single most common result of battle was captured ships. Now, a % of these were no longer serviceable, but many were. I'd guess 1/2 would be reasonable approximation. Maybe as low as 1/4.

It is also true that, in general, most fleets just couldn't fight successive battles without refitting & resupplying. Especially the latter. The point I made about armies is much stronger, applied here. I can see ignoring 10:1 interruptions, or whatever ratio is thought appropriate. But going on to fight several actions would leave a fleet, quickly, without ammo.

That should be taken into account.

But, to get back to the main point: please bring back 3.2 battles. Please.
 

unmerged(69928)

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I'd like a marriage between the two versions, both Naval and Land. You can approximate Land with a few minor tweaks and some editing of terrain, and it is better...

Naval is just plain out to sea. I have to agree it's a basic misinterpretation of sea combat in the era. I have to agree on captures from a purist standpoint, but from a gameplay standpoint it is rather easy to go "capture" yourself a Navy. You would have to make the demarcation between ship types much more pronounced to avoid capturing larger vessels without numbers.

As for supply... Ships are supposed to "resupply" so long as they remain in an area serviced by a fleet and port, they just can't repair battle damage at sea until much later on. So long as things happen in the abstract like this, they won't be addressable... Except maybe to up the attrition in sea zones to force everyone to bring ships in more regularly.

It also makes no sense to me that they couldn't turn the 10:1 into a capture ratio as opposed to a kill ratio. If you out number a fleet 40 to 4, you should either sink or capture all. Why not have a button at the end of the battle, or at the beginning... "Out to capture" or "Out to sink". If you're up against archaic vessels, strip them and send them to the bottom. If you're up against superior ships, but you have numbers, maybe you capture a couple before they run away. If you had the 10:1 applied to captures, you'd have to have a big fleet to make a bigger fleet. Even so, at 10:1 it would still be easy to amass a navy with captures.

You could introduce a fee to fit the ship to your navy, roughly half the the cost of a new ship... You have to repair battle damage and get it sea worthy and all that. It's more than just maintenance at that point. Get enough ships and you won't want to capture anymore...

In the end, without fundamental tactics available there simply isn't the depth needed to address all this. You always end up back at "all or nothing". We had nothing with armies and navies, now we have all with armies and navies getting vaporized. We went from minimal complications to no complications.

I have been enjoying the snot out of 3.2b, foibles and all. With a little practice, most of the silliness can be avoided, and pong that does occur I just chalk it up to a hard to kill enemy determined to live another day. Can't fault a guy for that. Either way, it sure beats 20,000 men running like screamy little girls into 3K INF and getting *poofed*...

I do recommend the 4.1b patch if you aren't using it. It does make a difference. Not much, but enough to help make it playable for those who like a little "bounce" in the armies step. :D

T
 

Maïdo

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Definitely unusual, but I don't know if you could safely say "unique" :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorke's_Drift

Not so unusual :D

-Pierre Terrail LeVieux, seigneur de Bayard (1473 – 30 April 1524), was a French soldier, generally known as the Chevalier de Bayard. Throughout the centuries since his death, he has been known as "the knight without fear and beyond reproach".
On one occasion he single-handedly defended the bridge of the Garigliano against 200 Spaniards, an exploit that brought him such renown that Pope Julius II tried unsuccessfully to entice him into his service.

-When war again broke out between Francis I and Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, Bayard, with 1000 men, held Mézières, which had been declared untenable, against an army of 35,000, and after six weeks, compelled the imperial generals to raise the siege. This stubborn resistance saved central France from invasion, as the king had not then sufficient forces to withstand the Holy Roman Empire.

-Siege of Paris, 885-886: 200 french vs 30 000/40 000 vikings

-etc...
 

George LeS

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@antracer:

I was trying 4.1b, when I got sick of it. Even with your improvements.

So far as captures are concerned, the RN in the Nap wars would have declined severely without them. I don't have the #s just to hand, but it was really a major source of ships for them.

I grant that, in 2.2, it was a problem. You could build a fleet, virtually for free. But in 3.2, it wasn't that big a deal. It was essentially at a lower-than-historical level, but one that worked for the game.

You are right about 10:1. In fact, that is exactly the situation in which it was considered right to strike one's colors.

On attrition: I'd like to see it redone with much smaller radii, but more flexibility about basing. Any friendly port should do, captured, allied, or vassal. Perhaps it should be possible to recover morale only in, or adjacent to, such ports. (NB: Naval Replenishing should occur ONLY for stationary fleets.) There are several things which might be done here, but it's another topic. The key is combat.

Another thing which might help would be the victor not recovering his moral (and losses) so much, post battle. The state of the winner at battle's end is always much better than it looked in the last day of battle. The snap-back should be less.

One thing which would help: moved the d**ned fire/shock labels so we can actually analyse what's going on in a naval battle. You always have 2 ships for which you cannot see what they're doing. At least we'd be better able to discuss the problem.
 

unmerged(69928)

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@GeorgeLes: I think it would be appropriate for ships to regain some morale whilst at sea, but would have to return to port to get fully functional again. There's only so much you can do out on the water repair and resupply wise.

It would be wild to have a third morale re-attainable in any ocean province, half in any coastal province. If you win handily, you're set. If you lose, hope a secondary fleet isn't bearing down on you. If it is, you can get a little moral back to make it out, just enough to get you home, provided you don't sail into anything. And no auto retreat. (I wish they'd get rid of that altogether for any unit anywhere. It's downright painful to see the arbitrary stupidity displayed by units as they run headlong into pathetic...)

Once the battle is done, the sides choose whether to give chase, if they are able, or to move on to another sea province. From there you'd have to nurse your ships home if you came out on the short end. If the enemy happened to come out of it substantially better, then it serves that he would follow and wear you down. You may lose a few ships to sinking or capture as you run for it. That's the way it should be. Maybe you make it home with 10 of your original 40 ship fleet...

It would put an end to open sea battles in the middle of nowhere where two fleets would be lucky to spot each other. It would make those round the other side of the world unsupported blockades alot dicier... It would make Navies actually matter as something beyond sticking in port for Tariffs and Pirates.

Combined with a capture option you'd have quite a bit to work with beyond the ultra simplistic level we're at now. Having to pay half the cost of a new ship to get a capture ready would discourage over use of the tactic. Raising maintenance to a realistic level to make having alot of ships actually cost you to keep would help against abuse of capture too.

Nice thing is you're not complicating the naval game much at all with these kinds of things, you're just making a naval unit behave as a ship and not as a piece of land artillery that happens to float...

T
 

George LeS

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@GeorgeLes: I think it would be appropriate for ships to regain some morale whilst at sea, but would have to return to port to get fully functional again. There's only so much you can do out on the water repair and resupply wise.

It would be wild to have a third morale re-attainable in any ocean province, half in any coastal province. If you win handily, you're set. If you lose, hope a secondary fleet isn't bearing down on you. If it is, you can get a little moral back to make it out, just enough to get you home, provided you don't sail into anything. And no auto retreat. (I wish they'd get rid of that altogether for any unit anywhere. It's downright painful to see the arbitrary stupidity displayed by units as they run headlong into pathetic...)

Once the battle is done, the sides choose whether to give chase, if they are able, or to move on to another sea province. From there you'd have to nurse your ships home if you came out on the short end. If the enemy happened to come out of it substantially better, then it serves that he would follow and wear you down. You may lose a few ships to sinking or capture as you run for it. That's the way it should be. Maybe you make it home with 10 of your original 40 ship fleet...

It would put an end to open sea battles in the middle of nowhere where two fleets would be lucky to spot each other. It would make those round the other side of the world unsupported blockades alot dicier... It would make Navies actually matter as something beyond sticking in port for Tariffs and Pirates.

Combined with a capture option you'd have quite a bit to work with beyond the ultra simplistic level we're at now. Having to pay half the cost of a new ship to get a capture ready would discourage over use of the tactic. Raising maintenance to a realistic level to make having alot of ships actually cost you to keep would help against abuse of capture too.

Nice thing is you're not complicating the naval game much at all with these kinds of things, you're just making a naval unit behave as a ship and not as a piece of land artillery that happens to float...

T

Substantial agreement here.

1. I don't see why morale recovery & repair should be constants, under all conditions. You're right about that. It could be scaled, as attrition on land is. There are so many possible variations, I'll just mention one: repair should not be constant-rate in all ports (or at sea, with Replenishing). It should vary, less in colonies, allies, captured bases, etc.

2. If retreats are to be automatic, they must be toward a base, at all times. Back & forth is inexcusable. I'd even allow sailing through (after combat) an enemy fleet blocking entry to your port. But also, a sortie, in hopes of a somewhat indecisive action which would force the enemy to break the blockade, even if victorious, would help the game.

3. I've said this many times before: I can accept that the AI not actually lose ships to attrition, but I cannot see why they should not otherwise be subject to it--even at half the normal rate--& return to base accordingly.

4. I don't think giving chase is a good idea. It was rare in fact. What I'm getting at is trying to stop any fleet from exploiting after a serious battle. I would support splitting off all damaged ships, automatically (like mercs on land); if the remainder is strong enough to go on, then do so.

5. Full sea interceptions should just be ruled out in the game. No interception except in coastal zones. Period.

6. Another thing which should go is the concentration on the weakest ships 1st. It's (a) unhistorical, & (b) a major reason naval combat leads to excessive losses.

7. I don't see the need for a capture option, in the sense of a decision. Just make them show up at something like a reasonable rate, & all should be well.

I don't see that there'd be all that much to making it work, if only a little attention & testing were put in. But 1st, at a minimum, the 3.2 level naval fights should be revived. (I'd go for land, as well, but then, I'm not so anti-ping pong as others.)
 

unmerged(173517)

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^ +1. bring back 3.2 fighting.

also, there has to be a difference in speed between cavalry and infantry. right now in addition to the weak land and naval battle algorithms, there's also the problem of the armies. they've become very uninteresting. before i had cavalry, infantry, and i had to know which to use when. now its all about oh yea go all infantry, get a couple cavalry, and when artillery becomes available stick a bunch of those in the back. it's not as fun as it used to be. before i used to make my army composition unique, and now everyone's is the same.

i just dont understand how medieval infantry has become so overpowered compared to cavalry. a man + a horse >>> a man

also, why not add archers to the game? they could be like weaker artillery units.
 

George LeS

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^ +1. bring back 3.2 fighting.

also, there has to be a difference in speed between cavalry and infantry. right now in addition to the weak land and naval battle algorithms, there's also the problem of the armies. they've become very uninteresting. before i had cavalry, infantry, and i had to know which to use when. now its all about oh yea go all infantry, get a couple cavalry, and when artillery becomes available stick a bunch of those in the back. it's not as fun as it used to be. before i used to make my army composition unique, and now everyone's is the same.

i just dont understand how medieval infantry has become so overpowered compared to cavalry. a man + a horse >>> a man

also, why not add archers to the game? they could be like weaker artillery units.

Those features can be easily modded. You can increase fire in the lower tech levels, add fire factors to archers, & change speeds in the defines files. I do all 3. But the trouble is the basic combat system is so bad now that none of this really helps.

I figure that eventually, they'll figure this out, & the official 4.1 patch, like the 3.1 patch, will improve things. But until then, I'll stick with 3.2. (That's what I did with IN. I tried it, didn't like naval combat, so stuck with NA until that was fixed.)

I just wish they'd give modders more access to the combat mechanisms, so we could have several variants out there to choose among.
 

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^ +1. bring back 3.2 fighting.

also, there has to be a difference in speed between cavalry and infantry. right now in addition to the weak land and naval battle algorithms, there's also the problem of the armies. they've become very uninteresting. before i had cavalry, infantry, and i had to know which to use when. now its all about oh yea go all infantry, get a couple cavalry, and when artillery becomes available stick a bunch of those in the back. it's not as fun as it used to be. before i used to make my army composition unique, and now everyone's is the same.

i just dont understand how medieval infantry has become so overpowered compared to cavalry. a man + a horse >>> a man

also, why not add archers to the game? they could be like weaker artillery units.

It's funny how complaints went from saying cavalry is overpowered to now many people saying cavalry is underpowered. I agree that cavalry should move faster, I'm not sure why this was changed. But I don't really see too much of a problem with the current system. Cavalry are still more powerful than infantry, and if used en masse can still be devastating.

Archers are in the game, but only as simply another infantry unit to pick from that has no unique attributes other than perhaps different fire and shock values. At least that is my understanding of it, perhaps someone else can chime in on whether or not the unit types in game, like the Longbowmen are actually different in anyway from regular infantry, like Men At Arms.
 

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It's what happens when you go from one extreme to another.

People complained, so they made a change. Now, most are happy with their generic go have a single all or nothing battle. It's bland and boring and I can rock it to the point of being unstoppable. A country like Burgundy can own half (or most if you care nothing for Infamy) of Europe in a matter of years. Fight correctly and you can't be beaten. When I am, it's because I've pushed or done something I knew I shouldn't have. The system is way to easy to take advantage of, which may be why people love it so much... It's just that easy to do.

I happen to agree with morris0n, battles are dull as hell and army composition is formulaic. It's so much so that having the right armies can enable you to roll over anything. The change to CAV speed has rendered them next to nothing but a flanker in a formation. Sure they do damage in battle, but outside of an army, they get mauled. You can use them, but why? Why lose all the men when as long as you build the armies right, the extra bonuses make life so, so easy...?

With such simple unit types, there's a way to make archers or long bows, but it's incredibly tedious to use them in game. Having the addition of an INF that fights from the back line like ARTY and you have archers and long bows, later on marksmen or snipers. It's the only way you could have them in game so you could choose to have Archers and skirmishers in the same army.

GeorgeLes did do a mod with Archers that had fire stats, and they work... But the only way to get them was to recruit form a province that chose them as their national unit before it cored.

Who knows. Until Paradox gets done with what they're doing, we wait and see. Till then I've been playing 3.2b and doing the AAR...

T
 

George LeS

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We're all limited by what Paradox gives us. We can mod from there, but only in a very much constrained manner.

One suggestion: Make archers a 4th unit type. They'd have special fire attributes, & a separate column in the tech table. They'd start with good fire/poor shock, & not get better, so eventually they'd go out of existence. Of course, there's still the question of horse archers. Maybe add them, too, & move artillery to a different class entirely, with a different table.

An alternative, which we could sort of do now: make archers, as someone said, a type of artillery. To make it work, they'd have to be a kind of composite unit, of bowmen & guns. Not very satisfactory, & quite inelegant, but it might be doable. That would at least work with the flaw in the game that tactical & siege fire is combined unrealistically in Arty factors.

But as it is, again, I'll stick with 3.2.
 

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Going back to 3.2 combat would be a terrible idea IMO. For one thing, you still can and do wipe out armies in 3.2, it just take 20 tedious battles until you manage to get them with the 2-1 0 morale at battle start rule and wipe them out at last despite the other side not having had a chance since they lost the first battle.

I agree that naval combat is much deadlier than it was in history, but I tend to assume most of the "losses" are actually captured ships. Why don't you get the "captured ships"? Game balance. Just imagine if you actually captured all the ships you sink in the game, you'd soon have more ships than you know what to do with. Especially since you don't have to worry about manpower for ships or dealing with captured cannon of different calibres or any number of other factors that prevented every captured ship being returned to service. Reduce the rate of losses/capture? You'd end up with ping-pong navies like you used to have with armies which would just be frustrating to most players. Re-do the entire game to make these things possible? Could do, but they'd need the money, time and motivation to do so.

There's not going to be capturable artillery or PoWs or archers that fire from the rear row either. I say this because they've had 3 expansions they could have changed combat in, and the only major change has been to let arty fire from the rear row, so clearly they're fairly happy with the combat model in the game. They're not going to start tracking the ammo useage of ships or armies either, both for the previous reason and because EU is a game, a game based on a board game, not a simulation.
 

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Going back to 3.2 combat would be a terrible idea IMO. For one thing, you still can and do wipe out armies in 3.2, it just take 20 tedious battles until you manage to get them with the 2-1 0 morale at battle start rule and wipe them out at last despite the other side not having had a chance since they lost the first battle.

I agree that naval combat is much deadlier than it was in history, but I tend to assume most of the "losses" are actually captured ships. Why don't you get the "captured ships"? Game balance. Just imagine if you actually captured all the ships you sink in the game, you'd soon have more ships than you know what to do with. Especially since you don't have to worry about manpower for ships or dealing with captured cannon of different calibres or any number of other factors that prevented every captured ship being returned to service. Reduce the rate of losses/capture? You'd end up with ping-pong navies like you used to have with armies which would just be frustrating to most players. Re-do the entire game to make these things possible? Could do, but they'd need the money, time and motivation to do so.

There's not going to be capturable artillery or PoWs or archers that fire from the rear row either. I say this because they've had 3 expansions they could have changed combat in, and the only major change has been to let arty fire from the rear row, so clearly they're fairly happy with the combat model in the game. They're not going to start tracking the ammo useage of ships or armies either, both for the previous reason and because EU is a game, a game based on a board game, not a simulation.

I know some prefer the new combat; I hate it. It does disrupt wars, making them depend far too much on chance. I do agree that 3.2 was imperfect, but given the choice, I prefer it, by far, to HT. The fact is that, although, usually, the victor in the 1st big battle did end up winning, in 3.2, it was far from certain. Haven't you ever lost a follow-up battle? I have. As it is, the wipeouts are just a flaw.

As for the sea battles, well, captures in 3.2 were flat-out not unreasonable. Yes, in 2.2, they were, but no longer. And in 3.2, we could tweak the tables & change the balance. I don't see how we can in HT.

Of course, the question of whether Paradox has the will to address sea power seriously is, as always, in doubt. The most I can do is argue how much the use of a land-mirrored system just distorts the game, & hope some of it takes. We did get captures reinstated from 3.0 to 3.1. And the fact, that HT gave us a combat overhaul, is evidence that some posts did get through. I just think they vastly overdid it, to the detriment of the game.

So far as the rest, well, we could give archers a higher maneuver value, easily. I'm not sure if they use them, but that just takes testing.

No one advocated tracking ammo use; I merely advocated a feature which would prevent following defeated ships, & used ammo as one of the reasons why it just did not happen at sea, the way it did sometimes on land. If you look at history, prolonged (multi-day) pursuit after a pitched naval battle was extremely rare. So don't have it in the game. You need to distinguish between what I & others are proposing, & the rationale we give for proposing it. To do otherwise just confuses the question.

As for capturing guns, well, it was frequent enough at the time, & it'd be one way for backward countries to get some. Which they did from time-to-time.

Finally, the game/simulation issue is, IMO, a red herring. Yes, it's a game. But without being, to some extent, a simulation, it would not have the following it has. You can see this from the extent of historical debate thoughout the forum. If EUI-II-III were not at all a simulation, this just would not happen. And the game would be poorer for that.
 

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Forgot to mention this:

I have now tested giving archers a maneuver of 2, and the game did use it in battle. (This was in 3.2). I also tried -1 & -2 fire factors, which worked fine.

Another thing I've recently noticed (not entirely relevant, but...): the AI no longer mass-scraps it's fleets in 3.2, when it reaches a new ship type. I've noticed that England kept Carracks in service at least until 2 levels more were reached, & was not mass-building. Rather, only 1-3 ships were on the stocks at a time. I'd seen this with Portugal, in an earlier game I played. In both cases, they were AI countries. An excellent development.
 

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  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
I haven't gotten into HTTT yet, but I really like the combat in IN. The need for restraint is great; IE, having to resist tossing one's armies deeper into enemy territory after a retreating foe.