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unmerged(69928)

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Feb 25, 2007
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A bit too busy to answer everything, but I can talk about this:
Armies followed roads where available since Roman times. If there was a road, they traveled on it unless there was a specific reason not to (and even if there was trouble, they'd probably just find a different road that bypassed said trouble). They were easier to walk on, more organized, and it was easier to get supplies from place to place on a set path and level, smooth ground.

So it follows that an army would be looking for a good place to 'have a battle', not necessarily looking 'over there at the heavily fortified enemy'...? From a siege perspective yes, they would to take the town. But for a battle between two moving armies...? Hmmm...

T
 

unmerged(155087)

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All,

Hopefully EU4 will have the HOI3 sub provinces which allow better representation of the terrain and the player being able to better consider and use the terrain, shame HOI3 is in need of so much more work. Anyway to the here and now.

As mentioned by others when travelling through any territory you would normally take the main thoroughfare (road or open plains) and you would not normally travel through the forests or the mountainside simply because of how slow it would be, how disorganised your troops would become and the high attrition rates. This is more so the larger your army becomes.

The location a battle took place could often be beyond the control of your best laid plans. For example you had no idea the enemy was there, you miscalculated their progress or you were out manoeuvred. In these situations you may find yourself on the wrong end of the terrain even if you are defending in your homeland.

The exception to the above would be when you have had time to dig in a defensive position.

With the above in mind I have some suggestions which may not be possible...
1. most battles should take place in the open plains and farmland.
2. the army who arrives 1st should in most instances have a small advantage of terrain.
3. if it is your homeland you get a small advantage of terrain.
4. If not stationed there for a month then both army's are considered to be attacking.


I know better understand the position of those who prefer this set up to the previous ping-pong scenario of the previous games. However the current configuration is so far in the opposite direction as to be a game breaker for many, myself included. I know there is more to the game.

Had the Battle of Borodino been fought under HT³ rules Napoleon would have annihilated Kutuzov's Russian Army and ruled Russia instead of Kutuzov's army retreating to fight another day. Additionally the battle would have lasted 12 days before the retreat not 1 day that the actual battle occurred in.

Whereas the Russians had 130k men and suffered up to 45k dead/wounded and the French 120k of men suffered up to 35k dead/wounded.

As explained so well by GAGA Extrem, it is only ping-pong if you are not making inroads into your enemy's army.

That said you should not always be able to always chase down with the army that was just in battle.
 

OrangeYoshi

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So it follows that an army would be looking for a good place to 'have a battle', not necessarily looking 'over there at the heavily fortified enemy'...? From a siege perspective yes, they would to take the town. But for a battle between two moving armies...? Hmmm...

T
Many battles were at least near major roads or regular path ways. It was rare that they just started marching an entire army out into the wilderness on a little used path.
 

Maldenic

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So it follows that an army would be looking for a good place to 'have a battle', not necessarily looking 'over there at the heavily fortified enemy'...? From a siege perspective yes, they would to take the town. But for a battle between two moving armies...? Hmmm...

T

The impression that I have got, from studying a wide range of European history, is that usually at least one army would be travelling along the road towards the enemy, then when each army's scouts saw the other army, the armies would form up to do battle, which was generally in a field/farmland somewhere nearby. A lot of the time, armies would observe eachother, camp overnight, and then form up battle lines in the morning.

Terrain modifiers don't really make much sense. This is not to say that the terrain of the battle field wouldn't matter, but in that case even small bumps, ridges, depressions, inclines, etc. in the field could make a big difference. If it just happened that the field was wet, or muddy, that would have more effect than there just happening to be forest in another part of the province.

What people seem to forget is that two armies using similar military tactics would choose a similar battle field. I can understand there being terrain modifiers for English attacking the Scottish Highlands, since the English Army seemed to be set up for fighting in French farmland, but in order to represent this, we'd need some form of "military culture".

Terrain modifiers for battles between two armies who are used to similar terrain should not be so one-sided. Sure, one army will have a better position (and even a very slightly better position could turn the outcome of a battle), but it isn't always going to be the defender. The only exception to this that I can think of is guarding a mountain pass, in this case, yes, the defender will have a significant advantage.
 

unmerged(155087)

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I am looking buying Europa Universalis III Complete and possibly HT³. The thing stopping me buying HT³ is what I see as a ridiculous and unrealistic combat system.

Any word on which if any mods will be attempting to re-address the current combat system?
 

Foelsgaard

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Would it be possible to mod-fix this by reducing morale damage (or increase morale levels) and defensive bonuses?

If you lose morale very slowly then it would give you time to retreat before you rout. Annihilation battles would only occur if morale is lost in 12 days (i.e. in very lopsided battles) or if you pursue the retreating enemy in force.
 

unmerged(69928)

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I plan on playing a bit over vacation to see. There's alot more to HT³ than this though, and it's not 'unplayable'. If anything it's easier to pay defender. If you like the political/trade/religious game and slow expansion, you'll more than likely find it quite enjoyable. It's only some of us conquering types that dislike the ease of abusing the system and the severe limitations if you don't... ;)

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, Wonderful Ramanahanakwansmass to all who celebrate something today...

T
 

Shabz

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Well this system to me seems about right. Retreating army, bumping into an enemy in that era, almost always promptly desintegrated. Your people have low morale, low org, units decomposed to stragglers. If you do not have a reserve army to run in and secure retreat, and your enemy managed to get behind you and set up a defensive position, it would result in slaughter.
 

unmerged(173517)

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i like the defensive bonuses. the attacking army would have to travel and would thus be tired. plus they dont know the terrain like the defenders.

the real problem is the raggedness of the combat now
 

quetzilla

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Just started EU3 straight into HttT, being an HoI3 vet. I obviously can't give an opinion on the previous system, but I can say that I have no complaints about the current one. When I lose a battle it tends to be for one of the following reasons:

1) They had more troops
2) They had a better general
3) They had better troop techs
4) I attacked into bad terrain
5) My army was low on morale after having been defeated for one of the above reasons

None of those reasons seem bad to me. I've read through most of the posts in this thread, and it seems to me that there's a pretty big difference from the previous system, and I think a lot of the reaction is simply due to it just not being what you're used to.

For example, I'm still on my first real game, as Morocco, and I've waged numerous offensive wars against equal and/or lesser/better enemies, successfully. I make sure to pick my wars so that I'm sure I will win. I'm currently #1 in prestige and make almost 50% more gold than the nearest rival (austria).

I do like the idea of split terrain penalties so that terrain matters, but doesn't overshadow troop numbers. However the suggestion of multiple retreat paths doesn't make a lot of sense -- why not just use multiple stacks and choose your retreat paths separately? You need generals for that I guess, but if you have giant armies I'm sure you can afford them.

Also, complaint about attacking giant countries like Russia seem a little off -- historically, has ANYONE offensively defeated Russia since it became a giant country? No. So it seems completely realistic to me that giant countries should be nearly impossible to defeat. Germany at it's largest lost because the whole world turned against them. In my current game, a rather large (but not giant) Muscovy empire got ripped up because they went BadBoy and every one turned against them.

So from my limited experience, the current system seems to function pretty well and realistically. Maybe try to take an objective look at things and see how much of the reaction is simply because its not what you're used to?
 

George LeS

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Just started EU3 straight into HttT, being an HoI3 vet. I obviously can't give an opinion on the previous system, but I can say that I have no complaints about the current one. When I lose a battle it tends to be for one of the following reasons:

1) They had more troops
2) They had a better general
3) They had better troop techs
4) I attacked into bad terrain
5) My army was low on morale after having been defeated for one of the above reasons

None of those reasons seem bad to me. I've read through most of the posts in this thread, and it seems to me that there's a pretty big difference from the previous system, and I think a lot of the reaction is simply due to it just not being what you're used to.

For example, I'm still on my first real game, as Morocco, and I've waged numerous offensive wars against equal and/or lesser/better enemies, successfully. I make sure to pick my wars so that I'm sure I will win. I'm currently #1 in prestige and make almost 50% more gold than the nearest rival (austria).

I do like the idea of split terrain penalties so that terrain matters, but doesn't overshadow troop numbers. However the suggestion of multiple retreat paths doesn't make a lot of sense -- why not just use multiple stacks and choose your retreat paths separately? You need generals for that I guess, but if you have giant armies I'm sure you can afford them.

Also, complaint about attacking giant countries like Russia seem a little off -- historically, has ANYONE offensively defeated Russia since it became a giant country? No. So it seems completely realistic to me that giant countries should be nearly impossible to defeat. Germany at it's largest lost because the whole world turned against them. In my current game, a rather large (but not giant) Muscovy empire got ripped up because they went BadBoy and every one turned against them.

So from my limited experience, the current system seems to function pretty well and realistically. Maybe try to take an objective look at things and see how much of the reaction is simply because its not what you're used to?

The one point you don't address, & which has been very common here, is the fact that so many battles -- especially at sea -- are annihilations. That, to me, is the real complaint. It is not losing, but losing one's entire army, under conditions we see as unrealistic, that is the main problem.

Yes, I also think terrain is overpowered, but that's a much lower priority, IMO. The rest of your post is OK, so far as I'm concerned. (Although Germany did actually beat Russia in WWI. In game terms, they collapsed, as a direct result of the war.)
 

unmerged(69928)

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My biggest bone of contention was the case of a large army of mine (or the opponents, really) getting clocked by a clearly inferior force. When a 20,000 man army disappears in a second to a 3K INF stack, something's wrong, especially since automatic weapons were a few years off yet...

Those kinds of casualty rates happened in the American Civil War, where the tactics hadn't taken new weaponry into account, but even then there were survivors, POWs and the like.

Can you imagine trying to kill that many men with muskets...? Or worse yet bows or swords...? The 3K would pass out and die from exhaustion... :D

This major gripe was fixed somewhat in the 4.1b patch. Battles were better, and it was less painful to play.

After that I adjusted the land tables and got a nice result, which I'm refining now. The slaughters are happening when they should, and the numbers are far more believable. I'm also getting that one extra round I wanted, with a typical large army on large army battling 3 or 4 times and then the loser getting cleared.

Generals still make a great difference, as does terrain. You still have to be prepared, you still suffer casualties. The battles are just as final, but have just that extra bit of time to maneuver and pull off those victory from defeat or save my army to fight another day miracles. ...though I wouldn't count on them like you could in 3.1... the AI is much better at seeing what you're doing and making it not happen... :D

T
 

greendevil

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I don't think -4 Penalty Trenches existed pre-WW1 and that a retreating army of 22,000 Latin Knights would get massacred by an army of 1000 Men At Arms?

Sure one can argue that they surrendered, scattered and the like... But to do so against a 22 to 1 advantage? Even at extremely low morale, the 1000 army should not be able to perform a complete genocide of a larger army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca

happy new year
 

unmerged(138116)

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Can you imagine trying to kill that many men with muskets...? Or worse yet bows or swords...? The 3K would pass out and die from exhaustion... :D
spartans_from_300_frank_miller.jpg
 

Asymmetric

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My intial reaction's are somewhat positive.

It feels a lot more like 18th century MP battles on a smaller scale, all or nothing with very high lose rates and destruction awaiting for you if you rout and don't have a proper defended escape path.

Against the AI are battles most decisive? Most definately.

Against strong human states... I'm less sure. You can no longer chase infantry armies as easily with cavalry now due to the speed drop. Although infantry being useful outside of sieging is a welcome change. WE is also much easier to combat against with the plethora of minus revolt risk decesions and easy to get high judge advisors. I'll be able to give a clearier answer after I see some large MP wars.
 
Last edited:

aussie

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Well this system to me seems about right. Retreating army, bumping into an enemy in that era, almost always promptly desintegrated. Your people have low morale, low org, units decomposed to stragglers. If you do not have a reserve army to run in and secure retreat, and your enemy managed to get behind you and set up a defensive position, it would result in slaughter.

I agree. Besides, the current combat system limits pingpong, which was extremly painful.

After all, whoever won the first battle usually gave chase to the other army and destroyed it after two or three encounters.

So what's wrong with limiting combats to a single fight?
 

Grubnessul

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Besides, battles aren't just one single engagement, but a series of battles and skirmishes in a province, but abstracted to a casulties/day. One thing that could be improved though would be some varation in the terrain you fight on, maybe modified by the generals manoeuvre skills?

(As that would make manouvre even more powerful, maybe change a NI to give + manoeuvre to generals, just like there is +fire and shock due sliders.)
 

George LeS

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Besides, battles aren't just one single engagement, but a series of battles and skirmishes in a province, but abstracted to a casulties/day.
....

That's not entirely correct. It may be intended, I think, to replicate both battles in the conventional sense, & campaigns. But it represents them as a single battle. And whatever is intended, you really cannot do both well, using just one "battle".

In any case, to the extent that the campaign model is the correct one, annihilations become less defensible. The sorts of wipe outs we see would happen, if they happened at all, in pitched battle.

...

After all, whoever won the first battle usually gave chase to the other army and destroyed it after two or three encounters.

...

That's not quite true, either. That's what Boney did at his best, & others sometimes achieved, but it is not the norm. It's an illusion fostered by the fact that great victories get the attention. But even among those great battles of history, Cannae is not the standard model. Gettysburg is. Or Lutzen, or Blenheim, or Torgau, or Stalingrad, or ...

The losing army was normally put out of the fight, but not annihilated, & the victor was rarely in shape to continue immediately.

Further, the new system has effectively all but abolished captured ships.